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Post by DMNate on Nov 17, 2013 15:58:03 GMT
I've been off the grids for some time now, but I don't play as often as I'd like. What shortcomings have any of you noticed with the gridless system, and how did you remedy it? Personally, I haven't run into anything that showed the gridless system to be inferior in any way. I will admit that I tend towards a more home brew set of rules (particularly with magic), so I may not run into the same challenges that one might if they stick to the books.
What have you guys noticed?
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Post by DMScotty on Nov 17, 2013 16:05:17 GMT
I have never run into any.
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Post by drathirbarrastudios on Nov 17, 2013 16:22:15 GMT
I am new to gridless play and we actually only played our first game using minis 2 nights ago. If there are any short comings I have not see any yet. It was awesome to be able to visualize the situation that we where in, it was easier to see my options, just great! Now I have to fix my mage *lol* he was my first attempt at creating a HERO character on my own and well.. eh.
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argiope
Cardboard Collector
Posts: 47
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Post by argiope on Nov 18, 2013 13:39:12 GMT
I joined a gaming group who have been playing together for about 20 years and they were grid player fundamentalist. Every player seemed to spend their turn counting out every possible combination of counting 6 squares to get from point A to B in attempts to get advantage without provoking AoO. When I became DM I adopted the DMScotty gridless play style and that stopped and battles sped up quickly. The only snarky comment I have heard was from the original DM when he said "That is where the grids are good, you can tell exactly where you can and cannot move" in response to me telling a player they could not get to the position they were trying for without provoking an AoO.
The players all love the gridless play and it does make battles more fluid, dynamic and fast.
Do invest in making area of effect templates for magic spells. Make a version of all the area templates (cones and circles) in the back of the Dungeon Master guide. I used coat wire or foam sheets to make the templates.
Do spend some time explaining the players how you will rule on when a player is in an area effect spell and when are they not
Do explain to the players where they have to be to gain flanking advantage against an opponent. There was a great discussion on this topic in the old forum. Hopefully it will get migrated to this new forum.
Remember the #1 rule.....have FUN
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Post by sgtslag on Nov 18, 2013 14:42:53 GMT
Spell templates can be made with any desktop publishing application, or even MS Paint. Print them out on a transparency (inkjet printers require a special transparency, which has an ink-absorbing coating on the dull side, which must be printed on; if you try to print on the shiny side, the ink will just bead up). BattleSystem Skirmish, which dates back to 2nd Ed AD&D days, had spell templates within it. I re-created these in MS Publisher, printed them on a transparency.
If you purchase some transparencies, you can use the extra pieces to make Fire Elementals, Water Elementals, and Walls of Flame -- see DM Scotty's video on this subject. Also, you may want to make up transparencies for each player who needs them for his/her character -- that way they won't be bothering you for them every time they need one. Cheers!
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Post by drathirbarrastudios on Nov 18, 2013 15:17:59 GMT
Do invest in making area of effect templates for magic spells. Make a version of all the area templates (cones and circles) in the back of the Dungeon Master guide. I used coat wire or foam sheets to make the templates. That is something we are going to need that I had not given any thought to. Thank you for mentioning it!
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Post by drathirbarrastudios on Nov 18, 2013 15:21:04 GMT
Print them out on a transparency (inkjet printers require a special transparency, which has an ink-absorbing coating on the dull side, which must be printed on; if you try to print on the shiny side, the ink will just bead up). If you purchase some transparencies, you can use the extra pieces to make Fire Elementals, Water Elementals, and Walls of Flame -- see DM Scotty's video on this subject. Also, you may want to make up transparencies for each player who needs them for his/her character -- that way they won't be bothering you for them every time they need one. Cheers! That is a very cool idea. Think we will have to make a trip to Office Depo this weekend.
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Post by onethatwas on Nov 18, 2013 19:00:06 GMT
The biggest problem I have faced when it comes to Gridless Play is acceptance. Some players like Grid-play because they can, as someone pointed out, determine their best advantage by counting squares. Others dislike having any physical table representation at all because they prefer theatre of the mind. I've found that convincing players to compromise between the two is harder for my group/D&D social pool than DM Scotty makes it sound (Not that I disagree with DM Scotty. However, easier said than done in my experience...)
I can also envision a few other problems with Gridless Play which, while easily fixed with wise preparation and consideration of how the rules would work, could become problematic if an issue creeps up on you despite your planning. Secret doors can be one that I see some people struggle with. Either they want to craft it directly onto the tile (Making it hard to make a secret) or they don't want to craft it at all, which contributes to a breakdown in suspending disbelief. Now, again, this is actually easily remedied, but I have seen (and had) some hitches on this issue.
But in any case, aside from those minor hang ups, once you get everything resolved in transferring over, it should be smooth sailing.
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Post by thedmg on Nov 18, 2013 21:41:53 GMT
I'm the DM. It's my way or the old cobblestone path to the dark castle. There are no short comings as there are no grids under my feet at the moment and I am perfectly capable of functioning. The rules merely standardise mode of play so that everything moves along... like laws in society... keeps us in line. The only people who are resistant to gridless are the same people who resist change in general, but don't realise everything is always in flux all the time. If a year ago you told me I'd be cutting cardboard on YouTube with a couple of cats, I'd have laughed at you. Things change... we're going gridless baby!
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Post by dmdubbledee on Nov 23, 2013 22:58:53 GMT
"If a year ago you told me I'd be cutting cardboard on YouTube with a couple of cats, I'd have laughed at you." Choice.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 2:40:47 GMT
The only thing I noticed was that players are more fluid with how they move, sometimes a little too fluid.. but I am DM and I just reach over and put the mini where it is supposed to be, there is no fuss. I also find myself using the measuring stick to determine line of sight a lot, which is interesting where 3D terrain is involved.
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Post by DMScotty on Nov 24, 2013 5:18:54 GMT
Rules can restrict heroic play...be prepared to toss them out and let the PCs be heroes.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 13:21:26 GMT
Agreed! Since going off the grid, many a time I have found myself saying "What are you rolling a dice for? That is so awesome, it has to happen".
Example, a player character (kobold monk) leaps onto a passing Stirge, rides it across a chasm, flips off it, and lands on a rope, in combat range of a giant spider.
I am 90% sure that would not have happened if I had just drawn that scene on a white board grid.
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Post by thedmg on Nov 24, 2013 13:51:13 GMT
Agreed! Since going off the grid, many a time I have found myself saying "What are you rolling a dice for? That is so awesome, it has to happen". Example, a player character (kobold monk) leaps onto a passing Stirge, rides it across a chasm, flips off it, and lands on a rope, in combat range of a giant spider. I am 90% sure that would not have happened if I had just drawn that scene on a white board grid. I'm 90% sure that wouldn't have happened if you weren't drinking the Dragons Breath at the local tavern...
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Nov 24, 2013 18:14:29 GMT
Coming from a background of "When I learned to play grids were on on the dungeon maps to show the DM the rough dimensions of a room", I have actually found more problem with using grids than in not using them.....basically everyone else has covered the main reasons above, but the one and only that even partially comes to mind is having to adjust to things on 4e power cards like "blast 3" or "close blast 5", which are easily remedied by making a set of templates...
and AJ couldn't have gotten to the Dragon's Breath.... I already uhm......confiscated, uh, yeah, that's it...uh confiscated... the kegs of Dragon's Breath...
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Post by brokentoy on Nov 25, 2013 13:51:32 GMT
Nope. No drawbacks. Acceptance goes fine; we switch DMs and campaigns regularly so when we switch to mine, they -expect- wild gameplay changes, gridless play and introduction to different game systems by now.
Maybe I should start a thread about the advantages of giving everyone of the group their shots at DMing...
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Bael
Room Planner
Posts: 288
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Post by Bael on Dec 3, 2013 20:07:52 GMT
Example, a player character (kobold monk) leaps onto a passing Stirge, Oh my, I sure have been away along time. Kobold player character? (record skips on turn table). There's none of that kumbaya, Politically correct "any race can be anything", everyone gets a trophy stuff in my campaign world! (Shakes the angry fist at the gods). "There is NO WAY a kobold, drow elf, THRI-KREEN is stepping foot into these city gates!" Keeping it OLD SCHOOL and pro-Humanistic!
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Post by thedmg on Dec 3, 2013 21:53:47 GMT
That's racism, fantasy racism. Affirmative action in D&D allows for all races to be in a party... except goblins, they're just scum
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leolad72
Paint Manipulator
I am a DM; it isn't in my job description to "kid around"
Posts: 147
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Post by leolad72 on Dec 4, 2013 2:15:48 GMT
That's racism, fantasy racism. Affirmative action in D&D allows for all races to be in a party... except goblins, they're just scum Careful, you don't want the D&DCLU (D&D Civil Liberties Union) showing up on our doorstep
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Post by onethatwas on Dec 4, 2013 4:05:54 GMT
I am ok with Goblins. I'm fine with Kobolds. I'm fine with almost anything. Except for three races:
Drow. Drzzt is an exception to the rule, and unless the campaign is underdark and evil, I won't allow it. Its bad enough drzzt exsists. We don't need anymore tragic Drow heroes roaming the world.
Teiflings. I'm irked endlessly by 4e replacing gnomes with a race that makes no sense as a "basic race." Also, I think that it has the same qualitative value as Drow. Playing an evil race as a tragic exception to the racial norm is no excuse to cover up a lack of creative ability and roleplay capability.
Aasimar. Mostly because I believe in fairness and balance. Teiflings are disallowed, so their good aligned counterpart is equally restricted. However, I could be convinced to allow Aasimar because its not the fault of that race that 4e decided to put an overvalued counterbalance race on a pedestal.
But, these veiws need not be universally shared, and you may feel free to ignore my gripes
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