Bael
Room Planner
Posts: 288
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Post by Bael on Dec 4, 2013 12:45:12 GMT
Kobolds need potty trained! They'll go right on the new bear rug in the grand hall! DISGUSTING!
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Bael
Room Planner
Posts: 288
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Post by Bael on Dec 4, 2013 13:00:08 GMT
Back to the original post, I have always been gridless and used homemade flat tiles. I've never outgrown AD&D 1st edition either (Kinda obvious,hmmmm?) and have go with the flow/create/fudge on the fly. I'm liking the tips I'm seeing on here for using beads to mark spell effects areas etc. I've always just guesstimated it. "Yeah, your fireball explodes and those 2 Frost Giants are in the radius but the third one is a little too far..." I have used war game rules ideas from "Operation War Board" (a wwII wargame rules book from the 70's) like measuring sticks (I had a kindred moment seeing others use them). I'm a stickler for dwarves moving 6" and normal plate mail wearers as well. "Will you guys come on! We'll be here all DAY!" Yelled the Wizard...
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Post by sgtslag on Dec 4, 2013 17:00:10 GMT
Apparently, with D&D Next, you can pick and choose which elements, of all of the Editions' rules you want to play with, and add them to the blender, then hit, "Frap-pay!" I still play 2/2.5, and I enjoy it. I had a male Player run a Female Lizardman Cleric -- now that was interesting. She got a lot of strange reactions from Humans, and she always insisted that the "horrid feasts" of Roast Human, were grossly exaggerated... She could be seen, daily, sucking the contents of Hen's eggs, puncturing them with her K-9's (the sucking sound was actually quite disturbing, and unsettling for all around her). She was interesting, and a blast for everyone to have her in the party, as she really caused us to pause quite a bit, to consider how she might react to certain things which occurred in the game. YMMV.
Beyond that, I usually do not allow non-standard races. I, too, am a fantasy race bigot -- and proud of it! Racism fuels my games -- without it, everyone would sit around the campfires, singing songs of love and friendship, asking, "Can't we all just get along?..." NO! Strife is life! Today IS a good day to die! Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Cheers!
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AlexBlue
Cardboard Collector
"Those who hear not the music, must think the dancers mad."
Posts: 4
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Post by AlexBlue on Dec 4, 2013 19:25:22 GMT
Is it just me, or did this conversation get derailed a while back?
*drags it back to the tracks*
I'm wondering do people find it's slower, more labour-intensive, or more distracting measuring distances in gridless play, compared to counting squares?
I've played and DM'd a whole bunch of adventures, always on-the-grid; and also I've done my share of tabletop wargaming, which is obviously gridless. But I've never tried to run an adventure using a gridless system, it strikes me that these two types of games are quite different - roleplaying VS strategy. Intellectually, I rationalise that picking up a miniature and counting out 5 or six squares jogs your suspension-of-disbelief/imagination less than grabbing a tape measure or measuring stick and moving the mini using those.
Physically, it seems like a bit more 'handling'; but perhaps that's countered by the idea that you can go anywhere, and aren't limited by five foot increments?
And before you say: "Just try it and find out", the reason I'm asking is that I'm currently playing in a (gridded) Pathfinder High Fantasy campaign, but I've been offered a chance to create and run a Ravenloft adventure as a guest DM, to give everyone a change of scenery. I'm planning to make a whole bunch of 2.5D tiles specifically for it, so while I will get plenty of leeway to 'do things a bit differently' I'll really only have one chance to make a strong impression, and I'd that to be because of the story, roleplaying and immersion, rather than a strategic experience and cool mechanics.
What do you guys reckon?
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Bael
Room Planner
Posts: 288
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Post by Bael on Dec 4, 2013 20:18:12 GMT
Is it just me, or did this conversation get derailed a while back? *drags it back to the tracks* But I've never tried to run an adventure using a gridless system, it strikes me that these two types of games are quite different - roleplaying VS strategy. What do you guys reckon? Wasn't this always a roleplaying game first? Can you play the new versions without a map and miniatures or not? Ever played Heroquest or Descent boardgames? There's fun to be had with both grided and gridless. I like wargames A LOT but D&D has always been about roleplaying,story and adventure rather then tactics and strategy and powergaming. I'm sure old timers will spit more venom as the younger players seem to have been indoctrinated with WOW and other MMO games before being introduced to later versions of D&D. My background is from playing long ago and started with no minis at all! The imagination is a powerful tool if you unleash it. Personally I prefer the fluidity of gridless with the emphasis on story and interaction with the minis as cool-as-all-heck looking markers to keep track of combat, marching order, etc...when needed and of coarse, cool terrain.
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AlexBlue
Cardboard Collector
"Those who hear not the music, must think the dancers mad."
Posts: 4
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Post by AlexBlue on Dec 4, 2013 20:33:20 GMT
Wasn't this always a roleplaying game first? Can you play the new versions without a map and miniatures or not? Ever played Heroquest or Descent boardgames? Well, technically speaking, D&D came from 'historic-ish' wargaming, but yeah, of course it became proper roleplaying in a pretty short order, with grids and more 'strategy game' elements being added in over the years. No, I've not played those. Someone gave me all his 2nd Edition books when I was about 7 or 8- so if there was a fantasy dungeon to be explored there was really only one system for it, as far as I was concerned. Maybe I should clarify that I have played roleplaying games that don't use grids, but then, they also don't use miniatures! (So completely avoids the issue there.)
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Post by dmdubbledee on Dec 4, 2013 22:49:38 GMT
As a devotee of 1e (since the late 70's), and as someone who has not played any iteration of AD&D after the intro of the d20 system (3e, which I didn't mind), I generally can't comprehend any use for "gridded" play except as a means to hybridize RPG's and board games. 1e already had a grid system, where ranges and areas of effect were measured in 10' squares. To be honest, the most recent iterations of "D&D" are not anything recognizable to me as D&D as I grew up with it. That said, I would reject any orthodoxies interested in determining what D&D should be--just because I don't recognize it, and don't really see the point in it, doesn't mean that it isn't a lot of fun for a lot of people. But I agree with AJ on this one--getting too mechanical about space can really limit the possibilities in a game that should be about expanding them. Of course, as I say that, I'm also thinking that kobolds are for killing, and nothing else. . .
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Post by drathirbarrastudios on Dec 5, 2013 19:42:19 GMT
But I've never tried to run an adventure using a gridless system, it strikes me that these two types of games are quite different - roleplaying VS strategy. My husband and I only recently started playing with the minis but I think that we have found a pretty good balance. Most of our games are kind of spur of the moment and very RP heavy (for us its more about the story). For these scenarios we do not use the minis and tiles. But when we are exploring dungeons or engaging in any kinda of mass combat the minis are a perfect addition. I have always had trouble "visualizing" the combat, with the minis I dont need to. The first time I was able to use my surroundings to my mages advantage just did it for me. The flavor text may tell me there is a lit brazier but when it comes down to the fight it may as well not be there. On the other hand when I can see it, its fair game for use!
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AlexBlue
Cardboard Collector
"Those who hear not the music, must think the dancers mad."
Posts: 4
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Post by AlexBlue on Dec 6, 2013 1:06:52 GMT
... For these scenarios we do not use the minis and tiles. But when we are exploring dungeons or engaging in any kinda of mass combat the minis are a perfect addition. ... Oh yeah, definitely there are times not to use minis. For example, as a rule of thumb I don't use them unless we're measuring game time in 'rounds' - interactions with merchants, researching spells, overland travel (and often wilderness exploration) don't get tiles or minis, because we're looking at 'turns', 'days' or maybe even 'weeks' at a time. Am I right in thinking that when you do use minis and tiles you play gridless?
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Post by drathirbarrastudios on Dec 6, 2013 2:46:54 GMT
Yep. It was seeing DMScotty and TheDMGs videos that got us started.
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rifken
Paint Manipulator
Posts: 112
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Post by rifken on Dec 7, 2013 18:28:08 GMT
DmScotty got me started as I suspect he got the majority of us started on the grid less. My players were all resistant and first and complained the first night. Grumbles were heard the second but by the third they had forgotten and for the first time as a gm the battle came alive. Occasionally in my experience the actual backdrop became part of the fight. I dont have too terribly much on the way of accents for my combats yet, im working on getting myself to make the chairs etc but the third I was using quite a bit. Chairs became weapons, tables flipped, barrels were rolled across the floor. Ive found that once I started crafting my ability to make more than a Patchwerk fight increased (I play wow, Patchwerk fight means that no one moves the stand and smash). Things got dynamic.
*resists plot train* I guess I am a minority because I really dont care what the players choose as a race. The number crunchers want +2 to whatever smashy ability and thats cool that works for them. I let them have it and call them humans. Cause really...its a game of imagination and I dont get zombie Gygax coming to my door by having them using human minis instead of whatever they choose.
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Dec 8, 2013 11:49:48 GMT
I am ok with Goblins. I'm fine with Kobolds. I'm fine with almost anything. Except for three races: Drow. Drzzt is an exception to the rule, and unless the campaign is underdark and evil, I won't allow it. Its bad enough drzzt exsists. We don't need anymore tragic Drow heroes roaming the world. Teiflings. I'm irked endlessly by 4e replacing gnomes with a race that makes no sense as a "basic race." Also, I think that it has the same qualitative value as Drow. Playing an evil race as a tragic exception to the racial norm is no excuse to cover up a lack of creative ability and roleplay capability. Aasimar. Mostly because I believe in fairness and balance. Teiflings are disallowed, so their good aligned counterpart is equally restricted. However, I could be convinced to allow Aasimar because its not the fault of that race that 4e decided to put an overvalued counterbalance race on a pedestal. But, these veiws need not be universally shared, and you may feel free to ignore my gripes OK here goes: Drow.... I was playing a drow who was orphaned and raised on the surface long before Drizzt came out... Loved the stories but Rob killed my character concept dammit!..... But then again I prefer to play my drow evil anyhow.....It's so much more satisfying and deliciously evil.... Tieflings.... a fun race with roots pre WotC.... then as with many things they became over done..... Aasimar... same as Tieflings Dragonborn.... WTH WotC? They are called Draconians and belong in the Dragonlance setting! or as some screamo character in the Elder Scrolls! Still haven't figured out why Wotc has to go through and continue to obliterate the backstories in many of our classic races... keep seeing it in the surveys on their site and how many young-ins, who have no idea of a races history or background, nodding their heads and wagging their tails like good little puppies at James Wyatt's continually proposed blasphemies! Crikey! They even eliminated the best of the alignment choices (which I happily house ruled back in) as well as tried to force us to play a 'happy flower dancing in our goody two shoes" type of game where no one can be evil because heroes aren't evil b.s. (bologna sandwich). Tell that to the orcs who revel in the heroic tales of Gruumsh fighting that foul pointy eared evil elf god Correllon and losing an eye to him....Tell that to the kobolds who were nearly completely wiped out in a genocidal act by that gnome diety Garl Glittergold! Tell that to the drow who were forced underground by their evil, greedy surface cousins! Tell that to the goblins who have their caves raided daily by those mean adventurers trying to steal their hard earned things from them! Heroism, as well as good and evil are in many ways subjective....depending on which side of that fence your on.... So I say bah! I say fooey! I say....... What the hell was I ranting about again? heh.... =D
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Dec 8, 2013 12:05:54 GMT
"And now for something completely different...."
When I started playing, way back in 1st edition (Ad&D), and through second addition, we rarely had any minis and the only grids were on the dungeon maps in the books or on graph paper as a way for the DM to be able to tell how large a particular room was... and if we did have a mini it was because we came across this totally cool figure that looked like how we thought our character would look. It usually just sat there next to our character sheet, or on our shelf. We played the game in our (says it real slow eee-maj-in-ay-shun) Imagination! It wasn't until the end of 3/3.5 edition that we saw a proliferation of miniatures, of various monsters in particular, become available in mass quantities at reasonable prices. That was about the time my group took a hiatus. When we came back we started with Pathfinder and on a grid, sort of. Even at that point we were like "Why a grid on the table? Our characters would move in a more fluid manner....so forget it just move em their distance wherever you want. It was never that hard for us to be able to tell what 5 or 6 inches was, and if it ever came into question it takes hardly any time at all to make a quick measurement. In fact usually we just eyeball it. It is a cinematic game style that we go for and if you move an extra half inch to be able to do that cool move then do it....
Anyhow just my take on it...
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Post by miltonmurphy on Dec 9, 2013 2:52:36 GMT
My group and I will be exploring GG (gridless gaming) once we've tied up Rise of the Runelords. This is great topic timing for me.
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Post by DMScotty on Dec 9, 2013 3:08:39 GMT
I don't even measure anymore so the measuring point is moot to me. I will have to explain this in a video.
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Post by miltonmurphy on Dec 9, 2013 3:12:55 GMT
I don't even measure anymore so the measuring point is moot to me. I will have to explain this in a video. It's a good point to make. When I opened the topic of GG with my group one comment from one of the more seasoned player was that we can pretty much eyeball the distances at this point (which I heartily agreed with.) Cheers, MM
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Post by drathirbarrastudios on Dec 9, 2013 14:14:27 GMT
Drow.... I was playing a drow who was orphaned and raised on the surface long before Drizzt came out... Loved the stories but Rob killed my character concept dammit!..... But then again I prefer to play my drow evil anyhow.....It's so much more satisfying and deliciously evil.... Dragonborn.... WTH WotC? They are called Draconians and belong in the Dragonlance setting! Yes, Drow (Druas in our world) were made to be evil! One of my favorite races to play! and Exactly!
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Post by thedmg on Dec 9, 2013 21:34:22 GMT
As my tiles follow a standard sizing system, distance is easy for myself and players to judge, we dont even use measuring devices unless I am being picky or rules lawyer #2 gets stroppy
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Post by monkeywithtacos on Dec 10, 2013 4:19:37 GMT
Rules lawyers tend to have unfortunate...uh...accidents...in my games...
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Post by onethatwas on Dec 10, 2013 4:23:31 GMT
Meh. I can usually outlawyer a Rules lawyer, because I am one. If that fails, I stick to Rule Zero, and DM god smite
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