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Post by onethatwas on Jan 2, 2014 8:42:29 GMT
So I've recently started watching The DMGinfo on youtube as a supplement to crafting ideas. First, great videos, very concise and informative while being amusing to watch.
However I have a question about your craft. To get to the point, why do you place walls on both sides of some corridors, but for others you only have one side glued on, and yet in others you have no walls?
I imagine there is a reason for this that I'm probably missing, but it seems the same effect could be accomplished more efficiently (with possibly fewer tiles, or at least less work) if the corridor tiles (essentially anything that isn't a room) were made with only one wall.
I'm looking to find out why you made the decision to use two walls on some corridor tiles because I like the versatility of having a "set" of dungeon tiles and need to replace the ones I had previously (gave them to a friend as a Christmas Gift). I want to make sure I have all the info on how to make a modular set so I can make them efficiently/quickly. Having two walls on the corridors just seemed like a potentially "optional" extra step.
But if there is a good reason to do so that I've missed, its worth asking. "Measure Twice, cut once," so to speak.
Another Q (I know, I said I only had one in the title. This one could be answered by anyone though):
I like the Idea of using double thick cardboard for stability, but I can't get access to much of it. Is there any reason I can't hotglue two sheets of cardboard together for the same effect? Is there any issues thay could arise from doing so?
Many thanks for any help rendered guys. This Forum is great for how helpful everyone is.
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dmj
Paint Manipulator
Posts: 245
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Post by dmj on Jan 2, 2014 13:21:14 GMT
As far as laying two normal cardboard together, yes it does work made a set of modular tiles that way including the down stairs method he uses and it acts the same.
For added stability I've thought about glue the layers together with each layer the corigations running opposite ways though I've not tried it yet.
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Post by wilmanric on Jan 2, 2014 17:12:02 GMT
As far as laying two normal cardboard together, yes it does work made a set of modular tiles that way including the down stairs method he uses and it acts the same. For added stability I've thought about glue the layers together with each layer the corigations running opposite ways though I've not tried it yet. I have glued two sheets of single layer cardboard together, with the corrugations going cross-wise, using white glue. Just a thin layer. I hold the pieces together with binder clips. Works great.
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Post by onethatwas on Jan 2, 2014 17:12:34 GMT
Yeah, if I did use that method of gluing cardboard together, I would run the corrugation opposite each other. Just seems to make the best sesnse.
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Post by onethatwas on Jan 2, 2014 21:43:25 GMT
I at this point have a 16 inch X 16 inch square of custom double thickness cardboard. I expect that some of that will be going to waste (or another purpose) as I crunch out decisions on what my basic tile square will look like. I generally do 2 inch wide entry/exits and/or corridor passages, which basically means I have to determine wall thickness.
However I'm a bit worried about the glue I'm using to ply the sheets together to make my custom double thickness cardboard. It was hard to work with and got really tacky really fast, making it nigh impossible to work with. Is there an option others use that is a little more consistent/easy, and doesn't require gobs of glue to slather on and spread around?
I figure before I make further tiles I will need to get this figured out. My current project will just need to be fixed as things go along if the glur comes undone or anything.
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Post by DMNate on Jan 2, 2014 21:53:23 GMT
I'd like to take a stab at this.
One issue that has come up with my modular sets is a balance between versatility and setup speed. The fewer the pieces that are needed to build a scene there are, the quicker the scene goes up (of course), but also decreases the variety of scenes said pieces can be made into.
Personally, I opted to err on the side of versatility. This is why I chose to put walls on just one side of my floor pieces, and no fully completed rooms. This has been good and bad. It takes me longer than I'd like to set things up, but always lends itself to more interesting spaces in the end.
I won't pretend like there is a "right" or "wrong" way to design modular sets. If you have an idea of how you could improve on designs you've seen, give it a try and test it out. :^) Just remember to report back so we can all learn.
Sent from my SGH-T679 using proboards
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Post by onethatwas on Jan 2, 2014 22:00:24 GMT
I think the only things that need walls, all the way across, are rooms. Making it really easy to create corridors leading to the rooms, as the room walls make up the second wall for the corridor. There may be other situations like this where atile needs all its walls (Crosse junctions for instance).
But having input from somebody else who has made these helps a ton, so thanks DMNate
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Post by DMNate on Jan 2, 2014 22:12:17 GMT
The same argument could be made that only corridors need walls, as they would then double as walls for the rooms.
I've found that if I use pieces without walls for the middle of a room, and surround that with pieces with walls, I am able to use the same pieces for room walls as hallways. Saves crafting time and allows for more than just square rooms.
Sent from my SGH-T679 using proboards
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Post by onethatwas on Jan 2, 2014 22:31:35 GMT
Quite true. As you said the probably isn't really a right or wrong way, but just ways that work. After getting your input I've gone forward with my crafting and am just about ready to craft the tiles. I am still very interested in thedmg's input however Never hurts to get extra advice
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Post by thedmg on Jan 2, 2014 23:41:03 GMT
Hi
DMNate is right, in a way.
The reason is versatility and also making non-square or non-rectagular spaces. There is also the situation where you have a corridor running perpendicular to a doorway and you need the open side.
If you have a look at my mapping and fog of war video you will see much of my dungeoneering setup at work in real time.
Having larger preset pieces aids in the speed of setup. Laying out a 5x5 (in my 6.5cm squares) would require 15 single wall tiles and and 10 blanks. This is a giant waste of time when you can just put down a single large tile.
I have seen some interesting variations people have made - corridors with door spaces in the walls and dead end pieces.
I explain my dungeoneering as conservation of energy and materials. If you are building a dungeon and have to expend your loot you are not going to make rediculously long corridors and have huge negative spaces. It would be compact. Corridors and room placement follow ease or restriction of access and have an order defined by the original purpose of the place. A place built to store things would have ease of access to the storage rooms, while a prison would have choke points which can be easilly cut off in case of emergency. It is not just corridor, room, corridor, room, corner, corridor, room. I don't like this sort of dungeon as it is just a sequences of encounters in a preset order and maybe a diversion somewhere.
Most of these preset dungeons don't need corridors at all. Why? Respite between encounters? Imagine building a functional building like that. It makes no sense. I prefer filling an area with 95% rooms and passages. Where the passages make sense in the overall flow of the place between functional rooms. Now the room may no longer serve the original function, but that function defined its location and proximity to other rooms. Bathrooms near bedrooms and kitchens near dining rooms.
This also helps in setting up the playing surface. I can lay everything down on a medium sized table, sometimes up to 15 rooms. This compact arrangment means i dont have to build sections of dungeon as we progress. Often my players backtrack and I dont want to have to relay the dungeon sections already explored.
I also dont believe in dead ends, unless for the purposes of a maze, or a concealed doorway. In my method of dungeon design players begin to predict where secret passages might be as areas are clearly unexplored when everything around them is and there is still fog of war covering parts of the dungeon. As a person would if they were standing in a room and sense that room is smaller than the structure surrounding it. This stops the monotonous search for secret doors.
Likewise for trapped areas. Traps make sense when well placed in choke points. My players instictively know when an area is likely to be trapped, because it is logical to place one there. This leads to the design of the place influencing the flow of the game and mechanics of the story. There is not always one there, so the uncertainty leads to a change in direction, slowing of pace and avoidance where possible. Sometimes they are driven into the area by battle or running away (I do throw in monsters that are far out of their league level 3 vs CR10 etc to maintain the sense of vulverability of the characters). It makes for more interesting choices.
To me the dungeon is just as much a character as NPCs are.
Having preset tiles allows for ease of layout and design. Having the different single pieces helps to make adjustments.
As others have noted, I use double layer cardboard to provide durability, but also so that you can simulate depth, something that even the best 3D terrain can't do properly on a table.
I find double layer cardboard everywhere. Anything heavy (like bags of cat litter) comes in double layer cardboard boxes. You can easilly make it as others have suggested, by sandwiching two single layers together. I would use white glue as the layers can be more compact. I never use more than 3 double layers. This restriction serves to keep with the spirit of 2.5d and playability, but also for storage.
I hope that helps
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Post by thedmg on Jan 2, 2014 23:56:51 GMT
I reread your question again and relised I had not answered it correctly. So in addendum...
You could do corridors with only one wall, but it leads to having to think too much about placement. You'd need to think about how to have the wall on the other side. I know it seems logical to have one wall instead of two, but it is quicker to have two, even if this leads to double thick walls in odd places. So you don't do your head in. You could go a step further and have no walls on corridors, except a few, as corrisors are merely spaces between rooms...
I also must state that not everyone will build my way and will stick to long corridors and rooms. I see it the majority of the time when I see people using my method, single wall corridors won't work for them.
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Post by onethatwas on Jan 3, 2014 3:01:25 GMT
As much as I really REALLY like DMScotty's method, when I saw it I tried to brainstorm ways to make it as modular as possible. My attempts had some success, but it always bothered me that the dungeons were so expansive with alot of empty space.
So all of the things you discuss about dungeon design makes sense to me.
Anyway, I appreciate all of the help and input. I can go forward with a plan now
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Post by thedmg on Jan 3, 2014 14:11:45 GMT
If you have seen some of my maps on Facebook, I also create filler squares to fill gaps, like ballistrades, dirt filled areas, water, etc. Just to make the negative spaces more interesting.
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Bael
Room Planner
Posts: 288
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Post by Bael on Jan 7, 2014 18:28:35 GMT
The balance is to have both modular and make custom rooms for important encounters. Say you are running the oldest most classic module of them all, "The Keep on the Borderlands", you can get by with most of it with modular tiles for most of the halls in the Caves of Chaos but wouldn't it be cool as heck to have the Evil Shrine area all made out all special and.......... "EVIL?"(places pinky to lips). The stone in this area is different (black with red veins, just think how sick that would look...inhabited by all those skeletons, zombies and evil clerics!) That's what I'm currently working on along with honing my tile making skills along with the Keep areas and some Descent into the Depths of the Earth modular passages (Primary, Secondary, Tertiary) riddled with sinkholes, pools, stalagmite areas along with the special encounter areas...Oh the EVIL! It has so much more character then the old flat tiles I've used in the past.
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Post by onethatwas on Jan 10, 2014 2:27:02 GMT
After crafting a small set (far from the recomended 80 tiles) I found that having corridors with walls can be rather useful. So that's up on my list of things to do.
But, inspired by DMG's awesome intro video, as well as his tutorial on making pits/chasms, I too a hiatus from regular tiles to make my own. I made some changes to the design to make it a bit more versatile for my own gaming use.
Specifically, I used a 2 square by 1 square segment, and made a ledge on only one end. I made the rock columns modular as well, basically just weighting them at their base with a nickle, so I can change the position of the colums...distance, etc.
Then I made another tile the same way...which gives me the ability to have shorter pits or longer chasms, as needed. All I have to do is put the pit tiles together, or seperate them as needed.
I'll get pics soon, to help if my explaination was confusing. But I figured I'd share my progress.
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Post by thedmg on Jan 10, 2014 4:32:24 GMT
That's what I do with water as well.
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