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Post by jennifer on Dec 28, 2015 2:21:08 GMT
Say a band of 6 vs 6 level one characters -- player gets to choose party makeup. They start with basic level one spells & skills.
Then say there are treasure chests at various locations on the map, and both parties go for the treasure, battling each other. Just use D&D rules? That way I can have all the complexity I need -- Song of Blades & Heroes doesn't have any magic other than transfix which seems boring to me -- I like a wizard being able to cast more types of spells (AoE etc).
Characters can level up and gain new items, gold and spells from the treasure chests.
Why would I need any other wargaming rules other than basic d&d?
Jennifer
EDIT: or better yet just have a 3 vs 3 to begin with to learn the system. E.g. Warrior, Cleric & Mage
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Post by adamantinedragon on Dec 28, 2015 2:58:48 GMT
Do you intend to have 6 vs 6 with a GM overseeing the entire battle? Or just the 6 vs the 6? D&D (and most other fantasy RPG systems) relies fairly heavily on a GM to adjudicate certain situations, so without someone in the role of GM, you might run into situations where a particular rule might be more contentious than you expect.
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Post by kgstanley81 on Dec 28, 2015 3:44:07 GMT
In the advanced song of blades and heroes I guess there is going to be more spell powers, and right now no AoE spells, but you do have damaging spells
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Post by jennifer on Dec 28, 2015 6:30:16 GMT
Do you intend to have 6 vs 6 with a GM overseeing the entire battle? Or just the 6 vs the 6? D&D (and most other fantasy RPG systems) relies fairly heavily on a GM to adjudicate certain situations, so without someone in the role of GM, you might run into situations where a particular rule might be more contentious than you expect. We won't be having a GM overseeing the battle. We'd both be referees and resolve problems with discussion. I thought a GM was needed for D&D due to them playing/roleplaying the NPC's as well as describing the environment. I wasn't intending on having any NPC in the hypothetical D&D skirmish between the two players -- and the terrain/environment can be readily seen without a GM describing it -- or we can describe it in detail to each other as we set the warzone up.
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Post by jennifer on Dec 28, 2015 7:14:00 GMT
In the advanced song of blades and heroes I guess there is going to be more spell powers, and right now no AoE spells, but you do have damaging spells I need to look at it more closely -- just started reading it. From what I gather so far, you just make up the name of the damaging spell (e.g. magic missile, burning hands, etc.) and it does the same damage as melee and archers -- is this right? I don't understand the spell power thing, just that the higher ones take more actions and they go further -- but otherwise the spells are the same?
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Post by teazia on Dec 28, 2015 7:58:54 GMT
They released a 5e war gaming supp online if ircc
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Post by jennifer on Dec 28, 2015 9:20:28 GMT
They released a 5e war gaming supp online if ircc Spent about 10 minutes looking for it online -- couldn't find it. I am curious what it is.
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Post by kgstanley81 on Dec 28, 2015 12:52:33 GMT
Correct on the damage, but no penalties against undead when shooting, in the supplements there is a summoner and necromancer
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Post by sgtslag on Dec 28, 2015 15:48:45 GMT
Yes, jennifer , you can use Basic D&D for skirmish wargaming, as you describe. For small groups, this will work well. Actually, you could use any version of D&D rules for this purpose, assuming small groups [fewer than 20 figures, total -- after that, it becomes tedious to manage all of the To Hit's and HP's for each figure, which is why they came out with various large-scale battle rules sets over the decades: Swords & Spells; BattleSystem (red box edition); 2nd Ed. BattleSystem (perfect-bound book, blue cover); 2nd Ed. BattleSystem Skirmish (perfect-bound book, green cover); Chainmail (not the 1972 version, but the D&D 3.X version; started the pre-painted, collectible mini's); etc.]. When using D&D rules for skirmish battles, you simply ignore all of the non-relevant rules. It can be fairly simple, and highly effective. My recommendation would be to use whatever rules set you are already familiar with, to avoid a learning curve, as well as spending money on rules you may not enjoy. For example, D&D 5E is around US$150 for the complete set of core rule books! You can order PDF copies of older versions of D&D/AD&D, off of dndclassics.com, for less than US$30... If you want hard copies, check eBay.com, and Amazon.com. Cheers!
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Post by DnDPaladin on Dec 28, 2015 16:44:03 GMT
5E basics are the bare minimum to play any type of dnd games, you have everything you need to start playing and have fun at low levels.
in fact, the only reason you may want to buy the 3 books. is because you'd get more backgrounds, more classes, more monsters and more info on creating adventures. as well as much more magic items. but aside from those. the basics pdf are complete games. you dont need more then that if you think whats in there is enough for you.
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sotf
Advice Guru
Posts: 1,084
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Post by sotf on Dec 28, 2015 23:38:41 GMT
Used to be working on a variant ruleset utilizing 3.5 to develop a larger wargame for D20. Basically, treating units as characters with "classes" for them that covered the basic ability sets for different major types of troops.
It used a different set of skills that plugged more into that sort of thing.
Actual characters were closer to the NPC classes, and monsters/beasts were where I had a few issues in hammering it out.
Stripped out as much of the stuff that would require a DM to handle as well.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Dec 29, 2015 2:23:28 GMT
its easy to handle large scale. what i do is simply add all the AC together of the whole group and then just get the median AC. for HPs i simply add them all and divide by 2. removing a creature once in a while to show its getting killed.
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Post by teazia on Dec 29, 2015 8:58:49 GMT
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Post by DnDPaladin on Dec 29, 2015 22:42:55 GMT
just remember that unearthed arcana articles are untested stuff they have on the back burner so it might not work as great as one might think. they are still good to know in which direction to go for stuff. but its defnitely needing to be improoved on.
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Post by runningwolf on Dec 31, 2015 23:23:21 GMT
I'm not sure if the free version of Savage Worlds has the mass combat rules but being free it's no loss.
I've only glanced at them but seems like it can handle anything from a squad size to full blown armies. And it looked fairly easy to use.
Hope that helps.
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Post by kgstanley81 on Jan 1, 2016 1:54:24 GMT
Sword play 2015 just came out from two hour wargames
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Post by onethatwas on Jan 9, 2016 4:49:18 GMT
There really isn;t too much of a problem with using straight D&D rules, except for the fact that the rules are not altogether streamlined for that purpose. I guess it depends on the version of D&D you are using. 3.x had a handbook for creating skirmish combats through conversion (The Miniatures Handbook), but even then it can sometimes be a bit over the top.
Magic seems to always be the sticky wicket when it comes to wargaming, because magic either is bland as unsalted mashed potatoes that have been reheated twice (in the microwave!), OR they are over the top game breaking...why wouldn't you use a magic user?
That is why alot of systems that allocate points give units or models with magic abilities higher point costs or restrictions on usage...it is the balancing factor. I don't know how you would arbitrate this without creating some arbitrary rules about it...like only 1 magic user per 4 models on the field...
...which means you have to choose a healer or a damaging unit unless you have 8 models.
just some thoughts...by no means an accurate depiction of how this could work since it is a new concept to me.
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Post by sgtslag on Jan 9, 2016 15:36:34 GMT
I've been playing 2nd Ed. BattleSystem (BS, mass battles, where one figure represents 10 men) since around 1995. I've played a few 2nd Ed. BS Skirmish games (where one figure represents one man) over the past several years. These game rules can be used with all mages, but the game would be boring, and one dimensional... Magic is only one Phase of each Turn. There are two Phases when bow archers can fire, as well as a Melee Phase. If one side fields only mages, they will most assuredly lose! Mages are like artillery, but in mass battles, their magic has very limited Area of Effect: it typically is limited to less then a 3"-diameter, which only affects figures within that A of E! In the BS Skirmish rules, A of E is still limited to the same scale as the RPG, but it has more potential. It all depends on how many figures are located within the A of E, just like in RPG's.
I would suggest you play out your preferred rules, with miniatures, and accurate movement measurements. I think you will quickly see that the A of E, and Range of spells, will seriously limit the number of figures affected by any mage's spell. I believe you will quickly see how advantageous a bow archer is (especially the Long Bowman...). Granted, the terrain will also have a drastic effect on the mage's spells, and how effective they are. In confined spaces, the spells will take their toll. In open spaces, however, which is more typical of mini's games, the spells will be much less effective. Cheers!
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Post by universalmonster on Mar 7, 2018 13:55:26 GMT
Hi this is my first post:
I can only imagine that since Basic D&D already supports miniatures, you could kinda just use the existing rules exactly as is. I think that was even the original intention. I was also going to mention Battlesystem Skirmishes (SgtSlag mentions above) which is an application of AD&D2e to miniatures. I found a copy on Scribd the other night and browsed through it, and it seemed pretty straightforward- the only major difference is "hit dice" are reduced to "hits". AD&D 1st Edition always had the miniatures stuff in it, like movement and spell effects measured in inches, but I never knew anyone who played it that way except one group when I was just starting to get into AD&D.
My final suggestion is to check out a game called Dungeon Scum (available on Wargames Vault) which is in a way- super simplified, but it really does kinda attempt to be a wargame with a roleplaying layer added in. I just got into it, and thats why I ended up here, looking at how to build more terrain.
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Post by sgtslag on Mar 7, 2018 14:38:53 GMT
Never heard of Scribd, before. Thanks for sharing, universalmonster ! RPGNow.com offered a PDF version of BS Skirmish, years ago. Not sure why WotC/Hasbro pulled it. It's a great mini's game with a veneer of RPG over the top. It plays quite fast, but it is definitely a miniatures game, first, and foremost. Welcome to the forum. Cheers!
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