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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2014 13:49:01 GMT
Basius 2: Kickstarter page
So what is this? Its a texture pad system, that allows you to simply cover a miniature base or tile surface with some greenstuff, brownstuff or greystuff epoxy putty, press it into the texture pad, and hey presto, instant fine detail sculpted texture. Very handy.
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Post by rane on Oct 25, 2014 20:29:20 GMT
COOL
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Post by tauster on Oct 25, 2014 21:01:00 GMT
supercool, and I absolutely love the many different stamps they have. but this is way too expensive for me, even with all the awesome possibilities it opens.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2014 0:28:46 GMT
Yes, I agree, the price of these resin plates is ludicrously high for what they are.. I understand why they feel the need to set the price high though. One flawed idea people tend to have is the "If people will only buy one, and it will last for a long time, make it more expensive".. this is stupid.
There are a lot of potential buyers, setting the price low will ensure more people buy the product, the more people buy it, the larger presence the brand has on the market, which increases sale and cash flow, allowing for more products and development. This product is resin cast, it is not an expensive material, the cost of shipping is not included, so really, the price paid here should be going toward expanding the ability of the company to mass produce the products and bring prices down further.. this is not the first successful product the company has produced and funded, so it suggests they are putting the price high because they are thinking "People will only buy one, so we need to make all the money we can from it".. again, stupid idea, flawed economic understanding. There are a lot of people, the market slice is huge, the manufacturing cost is low, the production of new designs is the avenue of demand from the market.. sure, sell one great, cheap, hard wearing product, charge a small amount, and make the product ubiquitous.. once you have that, you become the established brand, job done.
If I were them, I would set the pledge levels lower, generate the orders, then supplement infrastructure costs with traditional funding (loans, shares or investments), pump it into production capacity, and get the products out there. As it is, yes, the price point of these products seems a bit over the top.
However, very cool product!
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Post by DnDPaladin on Oct 26, 2014 4:17:47 GMT
thats kickstarter for you !
kickstarter is barely ever worth it.
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Post by onethatwas on Oct 26, 2014 5:49:44 GMT
So not everyone in the world understands the process of calculating product cost vs sale value. To hopefully give a little understanding, I figured I'd chime in. Note that the product here (which looks really cool) may still be overpriced, but it still bears noting a general (and, admittedly simplified) overview. All too often I see people complain about the cost of a product, which really just amounts to consumer criticism based solely on the fact that they can't afford whatever they are complaining about.
Again, this isn't to say companies (cough*gamesworkshop*cough) don't overcharge.
Anyway...
When a seller has a product, smart business "rule of thumb" is to meticulously calculate how much it costs to produve the product, then multiply that amount by 3 or 5 (depending on the product).
For instance, I will use a scenario I found myself in awhile back. I made a pretty neat little game prop for a wizard character I was playing (a wizard book/dice tray). After seeing the item, several gamers asked me how much I would charge for one. So, I looked into it.
First I calculated (via the reciepts for my own copy) how much I spent on raw material (faux book wood boxes from Hobby Lobby, wood stain, felt lining, glue, scissors, cardstock, paint, and special paint pens for writing runes). Thus total would be my start up cost, which counts as a negative on my accounting (I have less than 0 dollars because of this cost and am "in the red").
For these Basius plates, the resin, the castings of the original mold, the stencilwork or sculpting from the "artist" (which must be purchased or counted as a cost for purposes of this calculation), the machine used to produce the resin plates, the protective gear for this, the electricity to run these machines, the tools needed to produce...all counted as start up cost.
For me it was a start up of about 80 dollars. For them it can be in the thousands. Put this point on a graph below the value of 0 and call iy point A.
NEXT you take all your product (that is, a single unit of measurement), and divide the cost of it by whatever measure to find out what it takes to make ONE sellable product.
For me it was roughly 4.00 USD. For these guys? Dunno.
Now you calculate (guesstimate if necessary, though the more precise your value the better) how much it takes x employees to produce x number of these per hour. How much are you paying said employees?
For me, I figured I'd pay myself about 7 USD per hour, and I guesstimated that I would be able to make up to 3/hour (if I wasn't making anything too complex).
Divide your hourly wage for all employees scheduled in that hour by the number of products that can be produced in said hour. Add this amount to your other total.
I ended up with 6.33 USD for each item.
Now, multiply that number by 3 or 5. In my case, I multiplied by 3. In food industry, the standard is 3, but better restaurants sometimes multiply by 5. Same goes for retail.
So I ended up looking at an item that I would have to sell at approximately 20 USD to be worthwhile.
Why? The 3 times calculation covers cost of production, energy cost, rent of your business site (if applicable), future production, employee wages, and taxes you have to pay as a company. Also, profit has to be accounted for. This is generally referred to as "overhead."
Now note that I, as a company, am still 80 dollars in the hole. I have to sell 4 of these to BREAK EVEN, and then each one I make in the future COSTS me money to make. I would be making about a 6 dollar gain off each one (not 20 dollars as you may believe). That assumes they would even sell (if I made 10, and only sold 5, I would be in the red still, as I am sitting on useless product, which costs money to maintain).
In the end I decided NOT to make the investment in time and energy to produce this product...too costly with not enough interest (not enough people were interested). That and my gamestore owner friend was being a bit of a jerk about the whole thing...he was throwing a fit about the possibility of me selling them. When I offered to let him sell them in his store the deal he offered me as the product producing party amounted to a 0% profit for me (more accurately a negative value investment, since I would be stuck with the start up cost), and a 200% profit for him. I backed out of the agreement after I looked at the numbers.
But anyway, long, boring info aside, THAT is how companies determine how much they are gonna charge consumers. Economic trends notwithstanding (yeah gas prices, which are artificially inflated by oil companies...for no good reason...)
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Post by tauster on Oct 26, 2014 8:34:20 GMT
@aj & onethatwas: thanks for joining the discussion with such in-depth analysis. In the beginning of my crafting time I was making dozens of fireballs (initialy for use as spellmarkers, which is stupid because fireball is an instant spell which doesn't need a marker, and flaming sphere is almost never used in my games). I made about two dozen and just for the fun of it* I made an xls calculation. I figured that my 'hourly wage rate' should be way higher than what I earn in my job, simply because I'm doing this in my leisure time - which is much more rare and thus valuable to me than my regular working time. So I set my rate to 30€/hr. The result: For the largest fireball, costs for raw material amounted to a bit less than 60 cent while my labour added almost 4 € to the product. In the end, one large fireball** mini would have a prize tag of 4,53 €. I felt that was not too expensive and in the usual range of miniatures, so I put some of them on ebay. Nobody bought them. I was quite surprised by that, and learned that 'value' doesn't always equal 'marketable prize' for both the seller and the buyer. Maybe (i.e. probable) my way of selling them was suboptimal, perhaps I should have chosen a different platform than ebay. But I didn't want to open an etsy or dawanda or other onlineshop ust for a marketing experiment, so I buried all my hopes of selling some of my stuff and labelled the whole thing a lesson learned... * I'm an economist among other things, so my idea of fun varies from what other people usually consider fun *g* ** I made each five of small, medium and large size and 20 flat round spellmarker I'm not sure to which degree the abovesaid applies to the kickstarter project, but at least there is an obvious divide between me willing to shell out money vor the value I get out of their product, and their ideas of prizing. Which means that as long as one of us doesn't change, there will be less turnover for them. On the other side, there are a few cheaper (even if less quality) alternatives to their product. There are tons of acrylic stamps from the scrapbooking scene out there which are also pricey but not that much. And you can always buy some commercial bases and make moulds out of them. As long as you don't sell what you produce with these moulds and keep 'em on your own game tabel, you're probably find from a legal point of view.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2014 10:10:36 GMT
I have sold a few miniatures via ETSY, and I sell them there at a loss, because I am just doing it as a hobby and selling them was fun.. however, there is a load of time involved in making a scratch built miniature, even working fairly quickly, it takes hours.. the value though, is that each of those miniatures is one of a kind, so, they are art. And art gains in value in a totally different way.
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Post by tauster on Oct 26, 2014 10:35:22 GMT
You're right AJ. The challenge is finding someone willing to pay it priced as art ond not priced as a standard miniature.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Oct 26, 2014 13:44:18 GMT
One that was... reality being that DMScotty did the very same thing with cake molds that were dirt cheap. so when you start comparing the alternatives to this kickstarter, you figure out that this isn'T going to work out much. and if it does, it'll be too pricey !
not to mention pretty much anyone can create themselves a texture plate with clay and then simply use that to do the very same thing. in th eend that kickstarter looks cool in theory... but in practice there are so many ways to make textures that this is just another brick in the wall.
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Post by onethatwas on Oct 26, 2014 17:06:33 GMT
One that was... reality being that DMScotty did the very same thing with cake molds that were dirt cheap. so when you start comparing the alternatives to this kickstarter, you figure out that this isn'T going to work out much. and if it does, it'll be too pricey ! not to mention pretty much anyone can create themselves a texture plate with clay and then simply use that to do the very same thing. in th eend that kickstarter looks cool in theory... but in practice there are so many ways to make textures that this is just another brick in the wall. I'm not really advocating that this kickstarter is worth it for the price vs value. However, the reasoning BEHIND the pricing is what I was indicating. The value (in theory) is that these items are made as a specific gamer resource, meant to be used by gamers. Its a niche item. The fact that DMscotty has made something similar with cake molds isn't lost on me. The difference is that you are unlikely to find a cake mold that depicts a portion of a blasted futuristic wasteland. You can make such a mold yourself with clay or other items...but the density and durability of material isn't going to be the same, nor the quality (unless you are a highly skilled terrain sculpter). Once again, the theory behind the pricing is based on supposed quality of product, and based on that theory the calculation I presented holds (albeit at a presumed raised price, as AJ suggested). Their problem is that they are selling to a niche market that can (and has) find ways to accomplish the same thing for cheaper. In an expensive hobby such as war gaming, finding a balance between cheap/affordable and reasonable quality is tricky. It seems to me that they are trying to market convenience in their product. Assuming that some gamers lack sculpting skills (alot of us do) and that they don't want to hunt for secondary use materials (that one cake mold that works for a blasted futuristic terrain) or make their own with other materials. Quality? Check. Convenient? Check. Marketable Product? Go. So they run the numbers and determine what they believe is a fair price for the item. If it is too high, so what? Nerd Gaming (niche markets) has a very small array of available items for such things, and for every one gamer that DOESN'T buy this, the hope is that there will be one who will (at least). Once again, in theory. Whether it works out for them...*shrug* Who knows.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2014 1:27:38 GMT
I can see by the funds raised that this method works for them.
Rouseau.. get on to that video project ASAP! Mad keen to see that technique.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Oct 27, 2014 3:38:27 GMT
anything and everything can be sold with the right methods !
thats why im not talking about failure as a product. im quite sure they will sale a lot of them.
but the simple fact that creating reusable terrain textures is quite easy even for those non-sculpter around here. im not a sculpter, im not good at making textures... yet i have made myself some and they are quite working and by the time they need to be replaced. i'd have already done most if not all of my terrain with it. you also have to understand that sci-fi terrain doesn't really diverge from any other terrain. textures are textures, nothing else, they are nothing but basic depiction of a certain area.
in all sense of the word, a sand texture wouldn'T be much different on a sci-fi project then it is on fantasy desert setting. its like comparing grass to tall grass.
again DMScotty created the very same kind of textures for half the time, half the price, pretty much same durability. unless you really do not care for your stamps.
as i said, everything can be done, everything can be sold... im not saying he wont sell em, im saying its not worth buying into that marketting practice.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Oct 27, 2014 17:09:06 GMT
right now, you are only advocating the concept of time... time is something that is the same for everyone, but since everyone only wants to save time without noticing that you can't in itself. then you will see a difference. to me doing it myself is much more rewarding then having some already made stuff. why would i buy something already made. if thats the case then why buying the mold when i can simply call an artisan and make him craft what i need directly. in the end even that mold is useless. even hirst art is useless, why not buy the whole finished product right away then ?
deep down the only reason why you would buy that stuff to begin with. is that you still want to retain some control over it. the same way people repaint the figures or rearrange the figures they bought. so in the end. its goes back around. why would you buy something that pricey when its not even the finished products ? the finished product being, not the mold itself... but the whole terrain you created !
in the end, the goal here is not to buy a finished product, but to save time on making the said final product. now the only question remains... how much is worth the time ?
the answer to me, is that right now their prices are too high.
another thing you have to understand, they are creating this. if it works, some other companies will start doing the same thing, much cheaper. todays companies have the tendencies of wanting so much money that they are calculating their profit into the 500% cost value. thats too overpriced. you also have to know that kickstarter actually requires a fee to enter the thing, and that fee is 10k. 10k to start you didn't even started to sell. so if that product do not sell you just lost 10k. did that take even 10k dollars to create one of these ? i doubt it. thats why most people on kickstarter sells their stuff way too pricey. because they have to go back on their original fees. once the kick starter is done and the project has gone mass produces... then and only then will the price start to drop.
this is why i always tell people, that unless you wanna help the cause... do not buy with kickstarter.
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Post by onethatwas on Oct 27, 2014 20:40:05 GMT
Providing conjecture on why people will buy something is sorta silly. You don't know intimately why people buy papercraft instead of making 2.5D crafts for free. Or why they would fund Basius 2 over self made craft.
The most likely reason probably isn't time...it's, as I suggested previously, convenience. How convenient is this item to own?
For some (Not DnDpally most likely) it isn't really more or less convenient. For others, it may be insanely convenient...less time, hassle, skill, and resource to produce an item for the hobby (pick any that apply).
But again, the cause for why someone would buy this...who knows? But many would, for whatever reason. Debating whether it is/was/will be worth it is moot...some will buy it. Others won't. The company has determined to expend money into the item to try selling it for whatever price they calculate is fair (to them). That calculation may be overpriced for some...but not others. Thars the beauty of capitalism...you can sell an item for whatever price you can get away with.
But at this point the issue of fair pricing vs whether it is worth it seems to be a dead horse...
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Post by onethatwas on Oct 28, 2014 4:06:15 GMT
I agree that we all may be agreeing in different ways about the same thing. To be clear, I don't view anything here as a direct attack nor even a real full blown argument against my original post here. If anything, I think all my further posts have been meant to elaborate upon (thus better informing or adding to) my first post. Whether my elaboration achieved it's desired purpose...well, that's up for debate (sometimes I am a little too...wordy).
I tend to use "argument" as synonymous with "debate."
But as for the beating the dead horse comment, I do think there has been a bit more commentary on the nuance of whether this item is overpriced (for whatever reason is determined). But tjat is my opinion. I am usually up for stringent debate, but I am always wary of when a subject has been over-discussed...at least on my end.
Not to say the debate can't continue, but perhaps more than the pricing and/or reasons for pricing should be considered.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 5:08:10 GMT
I'm quite enjoying the different views expressed.
While it is expensive, it has a lot of re-use potential, it makes sculpting a base as easy as baking a cake with a cake tin.. sure, you could do it without this product, but if I had a whole heap of miniatures to enhance (such as the metric ton of them arriving soon from the Bones kickstarter), then yeah, this will save a LOT of time, and render a professional appearance every time, which, if I ever sold any miniatures, would greatly increase their value.
So potentially, in the long run, the product might end up paying for itself.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Oct 28, 2014 21:43:13 GMT
one of the thing i love about my analytic mind, is that often makes fractions whole all by itself.
reguardless of what you guys or others says... this basius is not the whole project, its just a part of the project. in the end its just another tool. i wouldn't pay that much for a tool that doesn't do much per say.
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Post by belatucadras on Oct 28, 2014 23:14:49 GMT
I went to school for an art degree. Metalsmithing (gold and silver mainly but also brass, nickel, copper, etc) mainly, but sculpting, painting, drawing and pottery were part of my studies. Selling my work over the years has taught me that something is worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. Some may decide that Basius is too pricey for them given that it is merely a tool and if you are only basing a few minis, I would agree. If, however, you are getting ready to base and entire army or paint miniatures on a regular basis and would get a lot of use out of something like this, then it may be economical for you saving you many hours of sculpting bases for hundreds of minis. I think price can be subjective.
My personal thought on this product is that it is not likely something I would buy. I would want more then just one plate. One plate would get boring to me after only a short time. The cost is in Euros and I am in the states so to get the number of plates I want and have them shipped to me would be cost prohibitive. If I lived closer to the source I am certain I would have a different opinion.
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