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Post by Wyloch on May 18, 2015 1:10:24 GMT
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Post by SpielMeisterKev! on May 18, 2015 2:48:09 GMT
Howdy,
I was sold on this way back when you first posted pics of your tiles here...But only just now did I consider using 1.25" = 5'. Brilliant! Just have to re-make all the range wands and AoE templates...you know...for gridless! haha.
Kudos, Kev!
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Post by Wyloch on May 18, 2015 12:22:08 GMT
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Post by curufin on May 18, 2015 14:22:51 GMT
Very interesting stuff. I also am fond of 'classic' modules and have been struggling with preserving accuracy of the dungeon. Great vid!
Are you from MI?
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Post by Wyloch on May 18, 2015 15:32:52 GMT
^ Yeah, Detroit. But moved away in '99.
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Post by Sleepy Hollow Mike on May 18, 2015 17:09:19 GMT
^ Yeah, Detroit. But moved away in '99. Ah! Detroit! Wonderful town. I got my first car stolen there! Lolol While I went in to pay for my gas! Of course that was back in the 80's!
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Post by teazia on May 19, 2015 3:07:11 GMT
That's quite interesting. Too much trouble for the construction for me though, and I am averse to cardboard and painting as well. I'll have to think about how it would work with corrugated plastic and b/w print outs.
Cheers
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Post by Cyan Wisp on May 19, 2015 4:58:35 GMT
Great vid. I always measure internal space for the tiles and I like a lot of space, so I actually allow 4cm (1.57") / 5 ft. As long as all my tiles are this size, it doesn't matter so much about scale.
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Post by teazia on May 19, 2015 6:13:31 GMT
Th pic below has some prior mockups I made with paper, glue stick (Mighty!) and corrugated plastic of a different system. The black is double layer criss cross plus low walls and the pink is single plus beads. They are more of an experiment. Cutting all the black plastic in odd shapes criss cross was kinda annoying, and the pink is for my daughter, but it was not really worth the effort. The gluing was rather tedious, but the tiles are very sturdy. After a year of haphazard tossing about, they are still very much intact (in a super humid enviroment too). One has to put some effort into destroying them! For 1.25 inch crafted dungeon tiles, B/W Paper print outs on colored paper (pink!) can alleviate the need for painting as can the color of the corrugated plastic (there is a rainbow available here). Walls can be just black, with possible hot glue to seal the sides (or not), One would need to cut the paper a bit, the walls would need to glue directly onto the tile. I need to figure out how to print my inch tiles (50mm?) in the pdf into 1.25 inch scale, enlarge 25%? I need to mock some up! And if it all groovy, maybe I need to sell of my DF Dwarvenite . (Nice idea with the rolled up foil, I'll give that a go next).
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Post by michka on May 19, 2015 7:23:21 GMT
Well I'm on board. Your tiles look amazing. The moving diagrams is an excellent way to explain your point. Actually I've been making tiles using DMG's scale for a while now, and his 65mm squares are damn close to your 62.5mm squares.
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Post by DnDPaladin on May 19, 2015 9:04:26 GMT
I'm starting saying this warning, this post may sound liek bashing at the the system. warning to you guys who will read, im not... im just explaining why i think the system is not more optimal then any other system. and i think the new way do not solve the problems mentionned in his vids. and im also explaining why i think that. this is my opinion and my opinion only. but again, im not bashing... i'm also gonna say why i do love the 1.25 inch grid, at the end of this post. so readers, you have been warned.
i'm just gonna say this much... even with the old ways. which is 1/2 thick walls. and on the sides... it is still very possible to keep the aspect of old tiles... you just need, much more single walled corners and single walled corridors. the problem arises becaue people want to save time by building those corridors with both walls already there. and as such, they end up with double walls in the center.
now if they were to make say... the top corridor with just 1 single walled corridors at the top. and the second corridor with double walled corridors. problem solved. you still have your single walls at the top, you still have single walls in the middle. and you still have single walls at the bottom. nah the real problem is not in the wall thickness, which by the way you wrongly portrayed in your beginnings. and i'll explain why a bit down below.
first thing first, if you dont want problems you have to build using what i call the lego route. that means building each rooms block by blocks. and that requires a hell of a lot of blocks. mostly corners, single walled corridors and no walls block. thats something im not gonna do at all... im lazy like that, im just never gonna take 15 minutes to make a dungeon that my players will be using for like 2 minutes unless there is combat.
the second thing is... modularity ! the problem is modularity, people want thigns to fit together. and as such have to fit in things together for them to work. but the problem arises why you notice that things on the maps, old school maps, aren't fitting together unless you go the lego route. which basically, square by square just like on old maps made on squared sheets.
the third thing, which is what irks me in your vid... is scale... your scale was off because you showed us walls that were 1/4th thick and tryed to fit in 1/2 thick walls in. of course the scale would be off if you dont scale everything around to the new scale. the same dungeon you showed i can easily do with half inch thick walls. the same way your method does. and to be honest, if you have inconsistencies between tiles in your dungeon. then seriously its not because the dungeon goes wrong, its because one of your tiles is wrongly made. were no machines... so of course sometimes our tiles wont be perfectly squary.
also just saying.. offsetted grid... who the hell came up with that ? i mean its the same as regular grid. i mean walls are still the same thickness and the corridor is still 2 inch. so why would you offset the grid on purpose ? im lost there... much like any players who do play on offsetted grids. 8)
now all that said... i do love the 1.25 inch grid idea, not that i am playing on grid anymore. but the idea of having more space around the minis and the stuff makes the game much larger. not sure i like 1/4th walls though, me think they give the impression of cardboard walls, no pun intended. i mean players may get to think they can easily pass thru the wall by just smashing it. larger walls give the impression thats it is much bigger then them. overall this system to me doesn't seem more optimal, it seems to me like you are trying to solve problems that players or DMs may be creating themselves by either lack of pieces or by lack of imagination in placing their stuff. or purely by the overall human lack of perfection.
but i'll give you that on your system... i love the added space. i think its much better to have space then crammed up stuff and thats one thing i hate from the DMG tiles. they are too crammed. makes the player claustrophobic. so the added space is very welcome. as i said, the walls adds space again by being smaller so its a plus. but i think they also remove the impression of the walls being solid. and im concluding on saying i agree with you on big companies stuff like dwarven forge. their biggest problem are their huge walls. i like 2.5d walls much more.
Video itself... love the way you did things. im definitely gonna subscribe and like those vids. continu like that you are on the right road. *thumbs up*
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Post by Wyloch on May 19, 2015 11:23:26 GMT
^ Thanks very much, however:
Incorrect. You would be left with 1.5" of free space, which cannot fit two minis, and cannot fit a large mini.
Also incorrect. Everything in the video was scaled perfectly, down to the last pixel. I did scale everything around "to the new scale." There is a segment in the middle of the video where I explicitly said "I'm going to rescale some things on the screen now." Try re-watching it, you'll see what I mean. Or maybe you can elaborate where I was not clear enough and I can revise.
Same as first point. No, you cannot. You will not be able two fit two minis in a hallway.
---
By the way I also intend this reply in the best light. I thought I was very clear but obviously not clear enough, so I want to understand how to explain it better.
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Post by teazia on May 19, 2015 14:59:33 GMT
Ok, I have had a chance to throw together a very hastily cut and put together a corrugated plastic with glued paper floor and walls prototype: Double layer floor and single layer walls (more on that later). Here is some minis of various model for scale. Put up you dukes! Stacked up: Ahem Fits right in: And the final prototype, the one that I think I would copy going forward. Triple layer criss cross floor and double layer walls, it has a very nice and robust feel to it and its a sinch to make! Again, all this is required was paper, corrugated plastic, a ruler, glue stick plus very little time (oh and a computer and printer). My 4 year old daughter even helped me glue things together.
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Post by Wyloch on May 19, 2015 15:49:20 GMT
/\ Fantastic!
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Post by DnDPaladin on May 19, 2015 21:01:04 GMT
Wyloch, the bases never changes. its 1 inch big and 2 inch big, you could even go 3 inch big the size of the actual mini do not matter as they go beyond the walls anyway. a scale goes beyond just one piece, it goes for a full set of thing, its to say everything is designed for that scale. taking an exemple of dmg vids... from which i did my own tiles based on before i got to 2.5d Next which solves your problem entirely. we dont do 2 inch + walls on the tiles, the one guy who does that sucks badly or like it crammed. and by saying we did tiles 2 inch wide and walls ont he side, that means the tile is actually 3 inch square. now your size is 2.5 inch square. it has diminished the scale to that point, meaning everything has to be 2.5 inch square. otherwise some things wont work. now going back to what i have... 3 inch square tiles. with 1/2 inch walls. that leaves me 1 inch short. so 3 - 2 im left with exactly 2 inch squares and as such i can put two minis aside each others. my doors are all 2 inch squares and they all fit inside my corridors. thats how scaling work. if you scale one thing you have to build everything on that size. basically what im saying... i could do tiles 5 inches square big and a whole dungeon like that. it would ends up the same as yours, just way bigger. the only thing where size actually matter is when you have a need for storage. which is often the case. hence why i like the idea of bigger space for character lower scale like yours. makes more room for those who wants transportable modularity. this is why im not sold on your concept because right now all you are showing me is space for the minis, which i like. so its a good start. but saying you scaling down things makes the game much better then others... blah... i'm not sold... as all i see is that dwarvenforge scales are much lower then yours. aka your scale is 2.5... their scale is 2. thats not the same scale at all here... as such its not comparable. i'm gonna give you an idea as well. dont know if you have them or not but i had this problem on some of my tiles back then, which was that sometimes corners would not fit wit the field tile. thats i'd need a small 1/2 inch square walls in each corner of that tile just to make sure things fits to the door. so you should all , not just wyloch... build yourself these neat tiles that solves that problem... this is a 4 way crossing. scontent-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/1510455_10155681034035144_4132873228539875369_n.jpg?oh=54f6d948c37a1e9543c06f3b4a8564b2&oe=5604AA9C
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Post by Wyloch on May 19, 2015 22:10:03 GMT
You're missing the entire point. The entire point was to allow standard miniatures - real world, 1" base miniatures - to fit on gridded tiles WITHOUT having to deal with "lost" spaces. I think this might be the fundamental misunderstanding we're having. Nope, it doesn't necessarily have to. It's true, with bigger 1.25" squares, the physical miniatures WILL NOT be as large as the squares. That's right. You would still use your normal 1" and 2" base miniatures on these 1.25" space tiles. As I discussed in the video, and you seemed to agree with, this actually looks better and less cramped. The environment got slightly bigger, the miniatures did not. Sure. They fit. BUT you have lost at least one half-space due to wall thickness. Therefore you will NOT be able to build the sample dungeon from the video with your 3"x3" tiles. It is mathematically impossible. I will bet you $10,000 in cash that you cannot do it. No it doesn't. Because I prefer gridded play over gridless. And it has the same wall problem.
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Post by Wyloch on May 19, 2015 22:23:50 GMT
as all i see is that dwarvenforge scales are much lower then yours. aka your scale is 2.5... their scale is 2. thats not the same scale at all here... as such its not comparable. Incorrect. Maybe the following image will help you. Sorry to press, but I don't want folks coming into this thread from Facebook and reading false information, or else they might not give it a fair shake.
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Post by teazia on May 20, 2015 0:21:54 GMT
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Post by teazia on May 20, 2015 1:31:24 GMT
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Post by thedmg on May 20, 2015 6:42:39 GMT
Well I'm on board. Your tiles look amazing. The moving diagrams is an excellent way to explain your point. Actually I've been making tiles using DMG's scale for a while now, and his 65mm squares are damn close to your 62.5mm squares. I have two scales. The 6.5cm classic gridless and 3inch for grid. The 3inch for grid allows for half inch walls and the grids line up perfectly.
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