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Post by vinnthehuman13 on Nov 5, 2015 21:48:41 GMT
Hello fellow crafters, I'm a relatively new DM and have been writing my campaign for a while. (one of those DM's that wants to plan for everything, but it probably wont work out) Part of my campaign takes the players to a desolate ice wasteland on a half frozen lake in the middle of a whiteout blizzard. My intention is to have some sort of faith based puzzle wherein if the players dont have true faith in whatever their god/gods they would fall through the ice or the pathway would not be present to them. I also wanted to separate the players due to the whiteout, and have a sort of mario 64, bowser's staircase thing, where they think they are moving but actually not. I've toyed with the idea of riddles or fighting some sort of ghosts or specters. I would love some input on this, anything from physical puzzels, to riddles, fights or whatever! Thanks guys!
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Post by l7arkness on Nov 5, 2015 22:39:16 GMT
One thing that would be cool is to take the Haunted wasteland from LoZ: Ocarina of Time and convert the sand to your ice and snow. Makes the mechanics simple whenever the get off the gods path they start over or get turned around eventually freezing to death or falling into a frozen lake
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Post by bluecloud2k2 on Nov 6, 2015 5:08:01 GMT
Final Fantasy 7 did this with the Glacier area leading up to the Crater where Jenova crashed.
Not sure how you would go about measure their faith...
One idea you could do is use the DMG's Cave Tiles idea, but invert it so the High Areas (the ice) forms the paths, and the low areas are water... Use Blocky Chucks of Foam Core for the Ice Flow... and make it like a sliding puzzle?
With white out conditions have it that the players can only see the tile they are on and the adjacent tiles... So you would only have 9 tiles down at a time arranged in a 3x3 grid.
Oh, and DON'T SPLIT THE PARTY!!!
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Post by lordmorbius on Nov 6, 2015 19:14:14 GMT
Hello fellow crafters, I'm a relatively new DM and have been writing my campaign for a while. (one of those DM's that wants to plan for everything, but it probably wont work out) Part of my campaign takes the players to a desolate ice wasteland on a half frozen lake in the middle of a whiteout blizzard. My intention is to have some sort of faith based puzzle wherein if the players dont have true faith in whatever their god/gods they would fall through the ice or the pathway would not be present to them. I once played an atheist in D&D 1st edition. My character was convinced that the gods weren't real and the clerics were all just magic users, masquerading as priests...their miracles were just magic spells, their healing was alchemy potions and it was all basically a scam to get the "faithful" suckers to drop some coin in the collection plate. I imagine he'd have a heck of a time with a faith based puzzle. For a whiteout with miniatures, you could place a white piece of poster board on the table, to represent the whiteout areas they can't see. In the middle of this white poster board you could place a small piece of terrain ground representing the limited area they can see. Have the players place their character minis in the center of the terrain ground and when they try to move, just re-position any ground items (boulders, wagon wheels, dead monsters, etc.) from one side of the visible area to the opposite side of the visible area, to simulate movement. As these ground items can be used as "anchor markers" to determine where the character is in the storm, make sure to remove the items when the character moves too far away to be able to see the item any more. There should be plenty of movement with no "marker" items to make sure the players can't really be sure where the place they just left actually is. Also, if they try to move in a stated direction, roll to see if they actually are moving in that direction of if they only think they are moving in that direction. They could very well be moving southeast in a whiteout, while thinking they are moving north. As for separating the heroes, if they are alone, then their challenges should be matched to their character's abilities. Fighter types should be the ones to fight the ghosts and specters. Magic types should have riddles and puzzles, and the rogue types should have slippery icy surfaces to climb, a frozen ledge to balance on and a trap to disarm. The idea being that isolated characters must have faith in their god and/or their own skill to overcome the situation. A separated and isolated character should be "snow blind" (ie: The dwarf's beard is crunchy with caked up ice and snow, he can't see more than a few feet in front of him and the howling wind and snow make it hard to pinpoint where sounds come from. The echo of the voices of other party members are hard to hear over the wind, but sound like they are ahead, or maybe behind him...and he could have sworn that other sounds, not from the party are mixed in...was that a growl from an ice troll to the east...or was it coming from the west? Dammit...this wind driven snow is becoming a real pain! Just my two coppers...
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Post by bluecloud2k2 on Nov 7, 2015 10:47:52 GMT
You might go into theatre of the mind mode, and drop the table top display all together. I see two ways to do this. Method I: Get a small printout of Chutes and ladders, pin it to a small cork board and keep it out of sight! - Every 10 minutes of movement time have them make a survival check.
- If they pass, roll a d6 and move a push-pin that many spaces.
- Failure, and they move backwards 1d6 spaces.
- Every 6 skill checks (every hour) roll for a random encounter.
- If they hit a ladder, there is a brief pause in the storm and they are able to move forward (which is represented on your hidden "map"
- Hit a Chute, and they come across a terrain marker they've already seen (and need to make a PER check to notice this fact).
Method II: Make a 20 by 20 grid of circles. Each Circle represents a 1 mile patch of ground. Determine where your lake is by drawing a thick blue line around those circles. For the Ice Flow, draw black lines connecting those circles marking the safe path. Determine your start and end points (which circles are the beginning and the end. Entrance is on "South End" of Map, Exit is on "North End" of Map. - Every mile they travel (about 10 minutes in game), have them make a survival check.
- Success and they move towards their goal. Roll 1d6. 1-2: Move one circle NE; 3-4: Move one circle NW; 5-6: Move one circle North
- Failure by 5+: Roll 1d6. 1-2: SE; 3-4: SW, 5-6: S
- Failure by less than 5: Roll 1d8. 1 is north, 5 is South. Count Clockwise.
To make things interesting, pick out certain "spaces" as set encounters. If you are using the Chutes and Ladders method, maybe every space that is divisible by 4 is a set monster encounter, and every space divisible by 7 has an environmental hazard or trap. If you are using the circle map, and pick out where on the map you want certain encounters/hazards.
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Post by vinnthehuman13 on Nov 12, 2015 21:43:49 GMT
Thanks for the great response you guys! You have definitely give me more to work with on this! As far as the Atheist character goes, I considered that and would make their portion of it involve maybe a family member or part of their backstory that is important, like if their wife died or they were searching for their father, things of that nature. Or have them face a fear that held them back, finding faith in themselves and their own abilities when confronted with their darkness nightmare or secret.
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sotf
Advice Guru
Posts: 1,084
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Post by sotf on Nov 13, 2015 0:43:08 GMT
Not really a test of faith, but an interesting environmental setup is to have wind and the extremely powdery snow while on ice.
There's not enough snow to really get a grip there, but the wind is blowing it in the players face as they have to advance. If you don't have gear to keep your grip or something to aid there, well, you're, at best, keeping your position and if not, well, you're getting blown backwards with the environment making it impossible to realize what's happening.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Nov 13, 2015 20:34:09 GMT
For your fatih puzzle, i'd say this is really really hard. players often need to hae the facts smashed thru their skull in order for them to understand the predicament they are in. so every clues is necessary. when it comes to dangers, most people do not play their characters, they play to survive and often start thinking like themselves and stop the immersion. what you are asking them is to play a dangerous place within their own characters and thats something not all players have a go with.
let's put this into scenario form that all players should be able to see and play thru...
first : make it clear that the gods are watching the place. what i would do is before end ask each players which god they follow. and then i would make them have an impression of power, a force is with them as soon as they get on the ice. as if somebody or something was watching. then as they go forward, they feel a question coming inside their head, as if the energy was speaking to them. they should also feel that the energy is known to them and that it is friendly to them.
second, the question. the question needs to be faith related. something like, "do you have faith ?" something not obvious but directly related to the ice challenge you are doing. the goal is to dissipate all doubts before end.
third and last, the answer... this is the hard part as the players need to answer the question to you as the DM. at this point they should know that something is off, either they stop and fear the thing, which prooves their faith isn't in order. or they go forward and have faith in the gods. at this point you only need to look at your players reactions and deal with it accordingly.
this is but a sample, something i would do as a DM about this situation. dont underestimate the players reactions, they will always throw you a curve ball. but this kind of puzzle you need to be sure your players knows what they are getting themselves into. otherwise the whole thing may end up not doing much.
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Post by onethatwas on Nov 21, 2015 2:10:47 GMT
Wow...I have done all of this before with slightly different scenarios...hope I can get my 2 cents in to help:
1) Faith is an abstract concept that really has no solid in game component, unless you are using a delineated rule on what constitutes faith. Most people don't have that, and even if they do (Such as the Paladin Code of Honor), they don't have a solid consequence system that works. This is the reason why Alignment is VERY hard to use in a game (Most people toss it out).
However, that being said: Have the players give you a Faith oriented statement 3-5 games before your encounter. This becomes their guide on life, and determines how they should act. ALWAYS KEEP IT SIMPLE! Something that follows this model:
"I Believe X Because Y, and I will uphold this belief or Z"
Examples: -I am afraid of spiders because one time a large spider almost ate me and my 12 dwarf friends. If I see a spider I will run.
-I follow the Path of Light because I felt the inner light of the gods welling up inside me since I was 12. I will always preach the good word in the hope of bringing people hope.
-The dark Lord is my master and I his servant, because his will is strong. I will do anything he asks, even murder, or forfeit my own life.
THEN...test them on their belief. I did this constantly with fears (Tell me your fear and how you react to it) to spectacular effect.
Once you establish this, you can make it a central part of the encounter...the ice will lead only those with true conviction, for those without shall freeze and wither (Or some such nonsense).
Those who have a faith oriented belief...test them with temptation against their faith, or have doubt cast in their mind...for those with fears, challenge them...for those whose belief is less severe, try to sway the belief.
As for the getting lost....this is really simple.
Create a simple roll table:
1-Empty expanse, Limited visual (-1 to next roll) 2-Unseen drop...possible fall damage (1d6) 3-empty expanse, limited visual-they see a familiar marker (Going in circles) 4-snow clears, allowing some visual...possible encounter (20% chance) 5-Snow clears, allowing some visual (No encounter) 6-They find a path that may lead them out of the blizzard-expanse (+1 to next roll)
Then determine ahead of time how many times they have to roll a 6 to get out. And enjoy. You should roll on the table every 15 minutes of play or for each successful search they make (limit to 1 every 5 minutes). feel free to toss strange things at them...silhouettes in the snow, tracks that don't look like their own...red herrings that have no affect on the outcome (but seem like they do)
Basically you are just stalling them, but you give them the illusion you are proceeding forward.
I used this method for a maze I designed for the PC's. VERY IMPORTANT to not give up the fact you are totally making it up. Otherwise they will be a bit peeved (I made this mistake later when I did my maze...it was very successful until I let on that it was just a stalling tactic meant to appear like a structured and elaborate encounter scenario).
Hope that helps.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Nov 21, 2015 6:06:55 GMT
the problem with that line of thought is that if players wants to evolve they need to conquer their fears and thus your IF statement at the end ends up failing.
exemple, a big spider appear the guy auto runs away. he sees his friend fight, he comes back conquer his fear and fight back, then move on to another fear as this one was conquered.
fear and faith is not the same thing. in the exemple of the original poster... he clearly seems to think religion is driven by in his world and as such players should already be following some gods. if they aren't they should have a good excuse and i wouldn't hesitate in caving in the player who decided not to have faith in anything. in the end players still have the last word, they should learn to live with their consequences. after all its a world of gods and magic, deciding you dont believe in anything is just a choice from you as a being. it still doesn't make it better then say having faith in a god when you enter the said gods shrine. even more if the said god is listening to your heart as you enter.
i did this to a player once... i had a loyal evil guy in the party and a chaotic good player. the good player entered his shrine to pray, the evil guy wanted in, he had nothing else to do... i said a force stops you from entering. as if someone had put a hand on your heart and said, not you. the player understood what it was, the god was there and wouldn't let any evil enter his shrine. he understood and decided to leave it at that. simple, effective.
but thats the thing with faith and why its so hard to make up... not all players plays with their characters and some only think as the PC as a stat guy. so it entirely depends on roleplay there.
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Post by onethatwas on Nov 21, 2015 17:52:22 GMT
The way to mechanically affect the game is the same for both fear and faith...they are both deeply held beliefs that affect how we percieve the world.
In the case of faith it may not be altogether negative, thus changing said belief is undesirable, though it could happen (and be cause for RP experience if the player portrays his crisis of faith well).
In the case of fears, challenging your beleif that spiders are scary and out to get you could be seen as a method to overcome it...but it should be gradual. A player who suddenly decides his character isn't afraid of spiders anymore because the fear is inconvenient doesn't get rewarded. A player who challenges the fear and takes steps to overcome it...not only can the fear be alleviated, but they get RP experience.
In the instance of the proposed challenge of having only the faithful overcome the icy path...they should take steps to overcome their fear in that moment, either because of their faith yhat a higher power will protect them, or because they begin to have faith in their ability to overcome their fear.
But I personally would not reward a player for blankly stating he faces his fear and overcomes it. Lets see the turmoil dude...
I games I run where fear is an integral part of their being, I give players two options: RP your fear and take no mechanical consequence...or we'll apply a negative modifier to your rolls to represent that you're suffering fear based trauma. Most people try to RP the scenario...
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Post by DnDPaladin on Nov 21, 2015 20:51:45 GMT
onethatwas, you've never conquered your fear out of wits ? i did in real life many times... since the movie arachnophobia, i had arachnophobia and yelling like a school girl everytime i saw a spider... then one day i had enough of that, i saw a spider, first gone away then i started approaching in, fear going up as well. but the more i approached it the less mystery there was around it. when i came to a close to it, my fear was gone.
i had fears of heights... then one day my father needed help to get down the place he was in... i conquered my fear on the spot to save my father. i climbed the ladder all the way up to the roof fear going up as i got higher and higher... coming down was a real pain after everything... but i conquered my fear and gone down. today that fear is gone. again because the mysticism, my mind creating scenarios wasn't doing it anymore.
thats how you conquer fear, your mind set. sorry but if i was playing in your campaign and you would stop me from conquering my fear saying you have to do it gradually... all i'd tell you is, so my friend can fight and i am forced to not believe in them because of fear ?
thats why believes are stronger then fear... fear makes you see the worst in thing... belief gives you faith in others and makes you go forward. nobody goes forward without belief, but everybody goes backward based on fear.
this is why fear can be conquered, but not believes... taking my own real life experience again... i believed i could coexist with the spiders and that they were usefull. i believed that my fear was unwarranted. once that belief got a hold of myself. i could step up toward the fear and conquer it. now i even let some spiders live because they get rid of others i dont want in. same with the ladder, my father was in trouble... i firmly believed i could go up there and save him. that alone conquered my fear of heights, though i cant say i conquered it entirely. i still have that fear. but i can safely say... from that point on, i can climb up that ladder again and again and conquer my fear each time reguardless of how much that fear pressures me. because i firmly believe that if i take my time, that ladder wont kill me.
there is nothing stronger or equal to our believes, reguardless of what it is. if you believe that fear is greater it will be greater, but its out of your belief not out of fear itself. thats the true power of a mind. this is again, why its so hard to portray belief in the game. because in comes under so many forms.
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Post by onethatwas on Nov 22, 2015 9:35:50 GMT
*ahem* I have ongoing Aichmophobia.
What that is is a fear of sharp pointed objects. It is distinct from the phobia of needles in that ANY pointed object can trigger it. I have had triggers from people pointing at me.
I got this spectacular phobia from being assaulted by my stepfather at the age of 10 with a knife.
...a bit more severe than watching a scary movie but I will grant that the development of phobias can be sometimes due to less traumatic experiences and it makes those phobias no less real...
Anyway I have to face my phobia EVERY DAY. For a long time I worked as a cook using the very same knives I had been assaulted with.
I developed will power and coping mechanisms to overcome the momentary anxiety, the urge to shut my eyes and turn away, or (in very extreme cases) to take the offending object and either stab the person weilding it or chuck it away (dangerously).
I am fully aware of how overcoming fear works. I disagree that a deeply seated fear can be overcome in one instance...especially when that instance is one of wild exagerration meant SPECIFICALLY to trigger trauma.
Take your claim of overcoming your arachnophobia...imagine the instance where you decided to overcome your fear...and imagine that instead of a cute wolf spider it was an oily, chitinous black widow 4 ft tall and dripping with venom and skittering towards you with menace.
Tell me you wouldn't wet you pants.
My staple environment is RavenLoft where this mechanic is very well integrated into the world. So yes, I would look you dead in the eye and give you a -6 to roll for the next week of game time as you recover from the trauma of horror effects...since you opted not to RP it out realistically.
Another thing common in RavenLoft is its attention to realism.
I have said before DnDpally, I would no more want you in my games anymore than you would want to be in my games...our styles differ too much and, from my perspective as a DM, you would be too high maintenance as a player. That has no bearing on whether either of us is more correct than the other. Differences of opinions need not be a matter of anyone being "wrong" here.
Anyway, my two coppers...
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Post by DnDPaladin on Nov 22, 2015 21:02:42 GMT
onethatwas, you are taking things the wrong way into it...
imagine for a second that huge spiders are a common thing in our world. wouldn't that make us able to fight such creatures or at least having found a way to be dealing with them ? what you are implying is that our adventurers that we play have never ever heard of such huge creatures or have never ever met such creatures in their entire lives ? thats why fantasy is fantasy because in the world you create such things exists and if such things exists at some point people have been knowing about it.
your saying is like saying this... vampire and undead do not exists in raveloft as such people who met them wet their pants on the spot.
the fact remains that in ravenloft those things exists, people know of them and while most are afraid of them. they do not necessarily wet their pants on the spot just because they fear it. i'm sorry but in our real world, right now i wouldn'T even be afraid of a black bear, or even a Buck which is far more dangerous the that black bear. met both and i didn't wet my pants. they are more dangerous then the spiders. going even scarier, sharks. people are afraid of sharks. fine by me i would too... but once you know sharks do not eat humans and that if you do get eaten by a shark he will not finish you off... all that mysticism is gone. getting eaten by a whale may seen nightmarish... but when you start knowing that you wouldn'T even pass by her mouth and that it would spit you out on the spot... the mysticism of it is gone. though i wonder what a man would be doing to end up being in front of a whale that actually opens her mouth to eat...
in any cases... fears are and always will be. just a reaction of your brain to something. and phobias are your brain "over" reacting to such events. the same way an allergic reaction is your body reacting with highest possible threat to something that is really benign. but a belief is entirely different. its a view on the world. a reason for you to have a goal. thats why both are very different things and shouldn'T be put on the same line.
this is why i hate realism... if you wanted to be truly realist... then none of your players would ever consider even for a second, to actually fight vampires, werewolves or even anything remotely stronger then them. it would be like a rabbit hunting a human. if i was playing or roleplaying realistically... everytimes there is a chance i would die, i'd be gone leaving my friend behind.
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Post by onethatwas on Nov 22, 2015 21:57:05 GMT
Actually...most people in Ravenloft are blissfully unaware (or ignorant, or in denial) of the horrors of their world. Most of the time they consider it superstition...which they adhere to...like a belief.
So yes, they would wet their pants when superstitious fear turns to horrible reality...
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Post by bluecloud2k2 on Nov 23, 2015 4:33:48 GMT
What he said.
In my campaign Vampires were believed to have been wiped out over a thousand years ago, and when my players ran into one I told them they did not know what manner of creature they were fighting. Even though one player said "It's obviously a freaking Vampire! How could we not know what it is or how to fight it!?"
I told him to make a Knowledge Religion check, no one in the party had that skill (the only healing they had access to was wands and potions). I said "Just cuz you know how to fight a vampire doesn't mean your characters do. As far as anyone knows, Vampires were wiped out."
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Post by DnDPaladin on Nov 23, 2015 9:16:03 GMT
your world is your world. ravenloft can be the world you want it to be. i didn't read much of it... but from the authors perspective the world of ravenloft is a cruel place and the denizen knows it. but as said, your world is your world. i am not trying to convince you to play otherwise. the first rule of DMing is always highly reguarded for me. your table your rules,do what you please.
i'm just speaking out of psychology here... swaying a belief is much harder then swaying a fear.
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Post by onethatwas on Nov 23, 2015 16:19:56 GMT
From a psychological perspective, I contest that notion. Variables matter and the deep seated nature of a belief/fear is one of the major variables.
A good example: Racial prejudice is based on a belief that one race is inferior to another.
Sometimes that belief is due to ignorance. That is more often the simpler one to combat. Sometimes it is rooted in fear. That one is MUCH harder to overcome.
Oversimplifying the nature of fear based on personal experience in overcoming it is akin to telling a meth addict that they should just quit drugs.
Fear is a type of belief. It is based on experience and environment. Like a belief. It is affected by social norms. Like a belief. It can be founded on a concept introduced to a person during a formative experience. Like a belief.
Now, not to be offensive to any religious persons, but if you question an athiest about why people of religious bend adhere to their faith, you may get an answer that is that many religious people fear the consequence of displeasing an unknown deity.
While this isn't true for all...it is certainly true for many. Faith can be affected by both positive and negative beliefs...fear among them.
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Post by onethatwas on Nov 23, 2015 20:07:34 GMT
I should note, however, that all of this is getting drastically off subject.
Back to the point: creating a rule for fears/beliefs/faith can be pretty easily accomplished (albeit not perfectly represented in a realistic fashion) by just having the players identify said belief and rewarding their portrayal of it. For this specific encounter idea the reward is simple: conviction of purpose regardless of the means required to achieve the purpose (facing a fear/doubt/temptation) allows passage over the ice.
Your job is simply to challenge whatever their beleif is. Personally I would reward players who do so both convincingly and with an element of drama. A person whose belief is founded in fear should be rewarded more for portrayal of their anxiety and difficulty in facing said fear than if they walk up to yhe spider, pet it on the head, and say they overcame their fear.
Just like portrayal of a Paladin struggling against a solid test of his faith might be rewarded more than a portrayal of a Paladin who walks past said test and says "I had no doubts/temptation."
One is dynamic and entertaining...the other is poor character development. I for one give more rewards to those who entertain everyone wiyh their dynamic character stories. It makes everyone hsppier.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Nov 23, 2015 20:28:22 GMT
and with just our little arguments here he can already see how hard it is to make this stuff happens.
the fact that the two of us, can'T even be agreeing on how to portray these the right way shows him that there is no right way of doing this, there will always be things that will not fit. hence why i said it was gonna be real hard to portray.
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