pepebe
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Posts: 187
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Post by pepebe on Mar 9, 2016 8:14:00 GMT
Last weekend I've unboxed the Temple of Elemental Evil boardgame. dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/board-games/temple-elemental-evilThey are using a 4x4 gridsystem to build floorplans. After playing around with them I felt that they feel surprisingly different in comparison to the standard 2.5d tiles. Quick overview: Pros: ----------- I guess dungeons are quicker to setup (One 4x4 section equals four 2x2). Bigger tiles have more weight. They should be less prone to be moved around by clumsy people. Walls are looking more massive. Walls can be used to put stuff on top of them. Cons: ----------- Very blocky design. Less flexible? Translating maps to the grid is less easy as most maps show walls on top of the lines rather than on top of the squares.
What I like about the system is that the walls emphasize the dungeon atmosphere and that they can be used in many ways. You can... * put doors and doorways on top of them to simulate gaps. * put a miniature on top of wall to simulate climbing along the wall/hanging from the ceiling (damned spiders). * put chunky pieces of furniture on top of them so they don't get in the way in a battle (cupboards, bookshelves, etc). * add wall adornments (fountains), alcoves (with cofffins) or traps. Before I dive right into prototyping a 4x4 dungeon tile system, I wanted to check if I'm something missing that is a major game stopper. What do you think about the concept? Cheers, Patrick
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Post by Wyloch on Mar 9, 2016 8:51:43 GMT
For me, flexibility would be the killer. The usual smallest denominator is a 10 square which fits 4 medium creatures. These are designed to hold 16 miniatures and each one is essentially a custom piece, not reusable or flexible. 0.02
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Post by DnDPaladin on Mar 10, 2016 2:59:52 GMT
the thing on those wizard tiles is that they use literally... 1 inch walls, which means they are twice the size that me and DMG were using, and 4 times the size of Wyloch tiles. those tiles are actually designed to use the grid. this is why i dont like these tiles. they are too crammed because you need much more to get there then you would a regular tile, thats all due to the wall thickness of it all.
i played a lot of board games on such tiles and the one point i hated on them all, is that the map, though looking bigger, ends up pretty darn small once the minis are on them. this s why i dont like this system.
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Post by thedmg on Mar 10, 2016 11:00:48 GMT
For gridded play I would suggest a 3"x3" grid, but lay it out as follows: So they fit together like this and the walls are 1/2" wide
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pepebe
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Posts: 187
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Post by pepebe on Mar 10, 2016 11:58:49 GMT
I understand the reasons for a 2x2 grid, but after a few sessions using it, I have the feeling that I'm spending too much time putting tiny dungeon pieces on the table. They tend to get moved around and never stay in place (perhaps I should glue some washers to the bottom). The 3x3 grid is a nice compromise. It takes less tiles to build a room/corridor (9:4) and should be less prone to wandering around. I guess whether a 4x4 grid is useful or not depends on your style of play. If you want to build a complete dungeon, walls are a necessary evil that has to be minimized as much as possible. In this case nothing on this plane of existence beats wylochs 2x2 grid system with walls inside the grid. If you only want to put the immediate area of the current encounter on your table, a bigger tile size would be a less of a problem. I'll prototype some 3x3 grid pieces and have a look how they turn out. I don't agree that 4x4 tiles would be not flexible or reusable. You can build them exactly the same way as the traditional 2x2 ones. You just need to build a few additional tiles to cover edge cases if you are picky about details. Depending on your needs, I believe even bigger tiles can still be useful. Do you know about anyone who build a geomorph tile system for caverns or dungeons? Source: rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/maps/geomorph-mapping-project/
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Post by skunkape on Mar 10, 2016 14:50:39 GMT
I'm looking at both 4 x 4 and 6 x 6 tiles for the following reasons. The 4 x 4 tile I'm looking to use is for western style mines. Basically, I would have the tunnel walls set roughly 1/2 inch from either side, a 1 inch wide rail line running down the center and still have 1 inch for figures on either side of the rail line. That's my 4 x 4 tiles.
The 6 x 6 I'm looking to use for outdoor tiles! Mostly fantasy and modern city style tiles. That gives me a road surface roughly 4 inches across and 1 inch sidewalks on either side.
But for interior pieces, I'm going with 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 similar to Wyloch's tiles. Once I finally get a chance to make some of the tiles, I'll post pictures.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Mar 16, 2016 10:06:34 GMT
pepebe: the size of the tile doesn't matter in the end. the only thing it matters to is the table and how you lay them out.
exemple.. you could use wyloch tiles and make them 4x4 instead of 2x2. that wouldn'T change a thing except your pieces would be bigger.
the walls things, i always laugh when people tell me, inside walls or outside walls... in the end its all in the tiles so there is no insidee or outside. not to mention that while DMG create a space for the wall. wyloch also does that with his tile. the only difference between wyloch and dmg. is that dmg uses 1 inch grid. while wyloch uses 1.25 inch grid. in the end wyloch and dmgs tiles would be the same fit if DMG was doing smaller walls.
again the only thing that matters is the size of things and whats your willing to use as a size. exemple for me i thnk tilescape is a great size. i like the 6x6 tiles more then anything else cause i like big rooms and spaces. but one could be like DMG and liking small cramped spaces more and do much smaller tiles.
so its all about your style.
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Post by Wyloch on Mar 16, 2016 15:07:23 GMT
pepebe: If you are using a grid, then the size of the grid space itself does make a mechanical difference (it does not just mean the tile is bigger). Also, you are correct, placing the walls "inside" versus "outside" the gridded space does matter from a mathematical perspective. But, whether that mechanical difference impacts your game in any meaningful way is really up to you. I think you are right that with a 4x4 form factor, you would just need a few extra tile styles to accommodate corner cases. For example, to build a 20' x 40' room (4 spaces by 8 spaces), you would need two identical tiles that have walls drawn on three sides, with the fourth "open" sides joined together. That's all I meant by flexibility...you said it better. Fewer, bigger pieces certainly easier to manage at the table. Four times easier, to be exact.
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pepebe
Paint Manipulator
Posts: 187
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Post by pepebe on Mar 16, 2016 16:00:39 GMT
pepebe: If you are using a grid, then the size of the grid space itself does make a mechanical difference (it does not just mean the tile is bigger). Also, you are correct, placing the walls "inside" versus "outside" the gridded space does matter from a mathematical perspective. But, whether that mechanical difference impacts your game in any meaningful way is really up to you. I think you are right that with a 4x4 form factor, you would just need a few extra tile styles to accommodate corner cases. For example, to build a 20' x 40' room (4 spaces by 8 spaces), you would need two identical tiles that have walls drawn on three sides, with the fourth "open" sides joined together. That's all I meant by flexibility...you said it better. Fewer, bigger pieces certainly easier to manage at the table. Four times easier, to be exact. As all people agreed here so far, it's just a matter of personal style. I've started with wyloch 2.5x2.5" tiles and I still love to build dungeons with them. I've also added riser blocks to build dungeon areas with different height levels. The amount of variety one can achieve with this system is awesome. After giving some thought about the whole thing, I have decided to add a few bigger tiles to the set. Some bigger corridors, a couple of rectangular rooms, etc. Basically a mixture out of dmscotty/dmginfo and your stuff. As a side project I'm going to build a couple of geomorphic dungeon tiles. I'm curious how they will turn out and how usable they are on the game table.
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Post by margaret on Mar 17, 2016 5:09:18 GMT
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Post by DnDPaladin on Mar 17, 2016 19:49:42 GMT
let me calculate wyloch...
2.5 inches... DMG tiles are 3 inches. you use 1/4th walls he suse 1/2 inches walls. if he was making 1/4th walls his tiles would be the same sizes as your tiles... yes you claim it doesn't change anything ? sizes is all you actually toy with wyloch.
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Post by Wyloch on Mar 17, 2016 20:29:34 GMT
Love those hex geomorphs.
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pepebe
Paint Manipulator
Posts: 187
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Post by pepebe on Mar 17, 2016 22:34:57 GMT
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Post by Meph on Mar 17, 2016 23:10:21 GMT
I concur, those are pretty awesome!
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sotf
Advice Guru
Posts: 1,084
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Post by sotf on Mar 17, 2016 23:29:15 GMT
the thing on those wizard tiles is that they use literally... 1 inch walls, which means they are twice the size that me and DMG were using, and 4 times the size of Wyloch tiles. those tiles are actually designed to use the grid. this is why i dont like these tiles. they are too crammed because you need much more to get there then you would a regular tile, thats all due to the wall thickness of it all. i played a lot of board games on such tiles and the one point i hated on them all, is that the map, though looking bigger, ends up pretty darn small once the minis are on them. this s why i dont like this system. Actually, if you use the 1"=5' scaling, then 1" thick walls is actually the right thickness for walls and supports for medieval and earlier stone construction. To go thinner, you have load issues unless you're using constant magic to maintain it. Lindybeige has a video that explains a lot of things with dungeons that's rather interesting.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Mar 18, 2016 5:21:13 GMT
While the reality of it is a great thing to know about... the reality of this game is totally different. i mean a 1 inch wall compared to a mini, is like yeah not so great. but i am happy to hear that im right to at least make it half an inch for walls and not 1/4th !
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Post by thedmg on Mar 18, 2016 12:32:33 GMT
let me calculate wyloch... 2.5 inches... DMG tiles are 3 inches. you use 1/4th walls he suse 1/2 inches walls. if he was making 1/4th walls his tiles would be the same sizes as your tiles... yes you claim it doesn't change anything ? sizes is all you actually toy with wyloch. Actually if I used 1/4" walls then the whole system falls apart. The whole idea of 3x3" is that you have 1/2" squares and rectangles which line up with additional pieces placed down - expanding the grid. The half inch walls then fill that space. Wyloch's tiles are about adapting old style maps from 1st edition mods and 2nd edition which have the walls drawn o nthe grid. His use of 1.25" solves a huge problem in transferring these old maps to actual terrain. In the end it doesn't really matter what system you use, so long as you are consistent throughout and maintain the sizing. Aaaaand have fun
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Post by DnDPaladin on Mar 23, 2016 17:23:28 GMT
DMG, im not saying wyloch is wrong doing his style. its a great system per say. but what im saying is that size of the pieces doesn't really matter. because what matters is that... like you said... you have to be consistent. half inch, 1/4th inches. 1 inches walls. doesn'T matter in the end. also, the fact of the matter is that most of your tiles are full on rooms already. his are lego blocks you need to add together to form something. its really not the same thing at all.
as for 1E style maps... seriously DMG, you can even do that with your system. let's be honest if you put your tiles together, like he does. reguardless of the size and have problems with it... it wont be because his style is better suited... it will be because somewhere some tiles aren't exactly identicals. in any cases... i'm all about huge rooms to begin with. and i play theater of the mind so i wont ever have to do whole dungeons like he does. so its all fine by me.
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Post by Wyloch on Mar 23, 2016 18:06:37 GMT
DMG, im not saying wyloch is wrong doing his style. its a great system per say. but what im saying is that size of the pieces doesn't really matter. because what matters is that... like you said... you have to be consistent. half inch, 1/4th inches. 1 inches walls. doesn'T matter in the end. also, the fact of the matter is that most of your tiles are full on rooms already. his are lego blocks you need to add together to form something. its really not the same thing at all. as for 1E style maps... seriously DMG, you can even do that with your system. let's be honest if you put your tiles together, like he does. reguardless of the size and have problems with it... it wont be because his style is better suited... it will be because somewhere some tiles aren't exactly identicals. in any cases... i'm all about huge rooms to begin with. and i play theater of the mind so i wont ever have to do whole dungeons like he does. so its all fine by me. You still don't seem to understand the math behind it. It absolutely does matter. It's okay. Let's let the thread go, and I can help you via PM if you want.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Mar 23, 2016 21:43:37 GMT
Wyloch... i have never have a problem with your 1.25 inch grid. that i like and i like having spaces. 1.25 inch grids makes the room seem bigger to begin with. it actually solve the scaling problem that 1=5 inch has by actually scaling the system down to... 1 = 3.75 which is much closer to the real scale of things. but when it comes to your walls... the size of the wall doesn't matter at all. the only thing that matter is that you leave enough space for the mini near that wall. you know, there is a quite good reason why wizards makes 1 inch walls in their maps. and guess what... it works too !
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