dmgreg8
Cardboard Collector
Posts: 22
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Post by dmgreg8 on Jul 25, 2015 4:26:04 GMT
I got thinking about this and making a room just for this.
Anyone remembers this part of the game, a room had this hungry Tentacle blocking you from getting past. The solution was to find a certain type of food and feed it.
So I thought they'd have to go search for food perhaps the kitchen nearby which has a cook with a big butcher knife. Easy to take him right? Not when hungry guards are next door.
Guess not much of a puzzle but I bet someone can make it a better idea.
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Post by tauster on Jul 25, 2015 10:48:13 GMT
Oh the memories... My first gut reaction was: 'Yay, let's sculpt tentacles! (...again)' and there's tons of MM-style tentacles out there. Heck, there are even video tutorials out there! I have done quite a lot of various tentacles myself, but so far no MM-style tentacles. Seems like something just crawled it's way up to the top of my to-do list...
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Post by DnDPaladin on Jul 25, 2015 19:22:02 GMT
good old lock and key puzzles. get X to unlock Y.
the only big problem with this, is spells and ingenuity. had a friend back int he days he would simply stone shapes the walls instead of finding which ever door keys. if the doors are in wood, they'd simply bash it in with a fighter or barb or paladins. if the door was magical they'd try dispel magic first.
all i have to say is that this kind of stuff is good. but you have to jump so many hoops as a DM to make it work. and in the end the players feel railroaded. and the fact is, they were.
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Post by birdskull on Jul 29, 2015 11:17:42 GMT
If the players get past it with using their heads and "outsmarting" the DM, then that's great. And if the DM plays this kind of puzzle well, the players won't feel railroaded. In my book, a good DM gives the illusion of 10 choices, when the players in reality only have two.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Jul 29, 2015 16:18:53 GMT
real DMs gives the impression of 10 choices, only to give none !
as for the players stuff... yes its cool to see them pass something creatively... but its awefull to see something you passed time on creating being passed as if nothing was there just because they dont want to to lose time solving a useless puzzle like a lock and key.
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Post by birdskull on Jul 30, 2015 1:50:45 GMT
but its awefull to see something you passed time on creating being passed as if nothing was there just because they dont want to to lose time solving a useless puzzle like a lock and key. Well, then you as the DM haven't really been doing a good job..? Right? But back to the puzzle in question: it doesn't have to be as easy as a lock missing a key. It has the same mechanics and that's super easy to see as the DM, but the players won't be seeing it that way. I think you're over-simplifying things and not seeing the potential, no offense. I like dmgreg's idea; it has potential if played right.
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Post by onethatwas on Jul 30, 2015 3:57:45 GMT
TheDMG's explanation of natural vs complex puzzles (iirc) helps conceptualize this really well. In essence, any barrier in a players path that could occur normally (a locked door, a surluagaurdsman, a hungry tentacle) is a natural puzzle: it requires a natural progression of thought to overcome (find the lock or bash in the door; beat up or bribe the guard; feed or evade the tentacle). It does not feel as horrendoesly contrived as most puzzles, but still requires adequate problem solving.
A complex puzzle can often be a string of natural puzzles, but can also be a puzzle that requires a greater level of thought, and may be purposely confusing: first you must decode a riddle to learn how to correctly assemble an array of crystals to find the key which fits into the keyhole hidden in the gargoyle's mouth two rooms back...
In this instance, you come across the hungry tentacle...either they solve the puzzle through force (perfectly fine option), they have to find food to negotiate passage (what does it want to eat? Perhaps cryptic requests can make it more fun), they could sneak or evade past it (also a good solution, and fair), or they try to find a different passage entirely (if one exists).
Technically there is another option...wait until the thing starves to death. As a DM, you are free to close off possible options...perhaps not immediately, but as they try out various options. Let them think they have more options.
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Post by DnDPaladin on Jul 30, 2015 4:40:52 GMT
onethatwas... there is also multiple options including stone shaping th ewall beside it, safely outside the range of that tentacle. there is also the option of banishing th etentacle into another realm. there is also dimension door, astral shift. want me to go on on spells alone that can solve this puzzle and not all of them are high levels. some are actually low level spells like pass thru walls. this is why its perfectly better to warn the players before hand or find a way for them not to use magic in this kind of puzzle. you just can't be prepared for everything the player does. there is just too much options in the players hands.
birdskull, if you railroad your players even in their choices of actions... i'd say you are the one making a mistake, not me. i always let my players play exactly how they want it to be...
unfortunately... i have experienced many times the simple answer to every problems... let it be, lets move onto something else. including dropping the actual quest because th eplayers thinks its too much trouble for their worth. if you never experienced that before, it is probably due to you railroading your players too much and in the end they became spectators of your game instead.
that said i agree with onethatwas, after reading DMG website and his advice a few months back. i thought they were quite clear concepts. at this point in time... it entirely depenmds on your players. the best exemple i have is right here on this very forum. one guy did a puzzle. asked us to solve it and we all did... in less then 2 minutes at it. told him it was easy as hell. so he posted it for his players in his game... before i get to that i must also tell you that we were 3 that even though we said it was too easy for us... it was still too hard for his players. i was in those 3 people... he said i can't make this more easy. we told him he had to spoon feed his players if he wanted tthem to solve that riddle...
so he came back to us with the results and said none of his 6 players found it, all of them said it was too wrongly sentenced and that it was missleading them. so here out of 10 people who answered... all 10 got the answer right. there in his game... 6 people.. none of them got it. so thats why i say it really depends on your players. thats also why DMG talks about natural blockades and non-natural ones.
i am not saying this puzzle is not worth doing, if you believe i said that, you missinterpretted what i did. i did this type of things often and it does work. not all the times. but it does work. but... as in the exemple of the riddle... think about it this way.. if its too obvious to you... it still isn't for your players. spoon fed them. give them obvious hints and dont hesitate to stop them if they seem not to pick up the hints.
exemple... i had a player pass near a wall with writtings, i told him there was... he ignored it. that was clue number 1. then they came to a door with writtings inbedded in it. they checked the door for traps and then openned it. ignoring the writtings. clue number 2 was ignored again. when they arrived at the big bad door. they tryed to open it... at this point i ignored the trap first... and decided to give the avision of the horrible monster that was behind that door. had i gone with my original plans, the first guy that touched the door was dead on the spot. pretty sure at that point they wouldn'T have figured it out. i would of TPK the group right there because they weren't ready for that room yet. in the vision they saw the old mage shutting the door and the monster off. then writing the warnings on the door before it and the walls before it.
guess what... its that point that one of my players said... oh snap that was writting as in language ?!! we thought it was runes used in old forgotten magics and since it wasn't glowing it was used up. i literally face palmed myself... i clearly told them it was "WRITTINGS" since when is writtings and runes the same shit ?
see what you intend to do and what your players will think about it, are two completely different things. in life there is 3 things that holds true... - what you said - what they "THINK" you've said - what you truly wanted to say. everyone interprets what it wants to hear. some are negatives and only hear the negative. some are optimistic and only hear the good stuff. some ar elogical and only hears what they think makes more sense. but not everyone even if speaking the same languages can understand each others well. there is always some miss conception hapenning.
so again... if you dont spoon fed your players... your blockade might not happen the way you want it to be hapenning. so dont hesitate to give them the hints and force it upon them if need be. make it clear that the tentacle is there. maybe by making it telepathically speak with the players. or writtings, books obvious books. scrolls whatever they can find that speaks of it before hand.
because i know how i would act if i fall directly on that tentacle... im gonna bash it in, thinking its just another monster. the puzzle will surely not be my first thought about it.
just an advice...
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Post by bluecloud2k2 on Sept 12, 2015 10:48:02 GMT
There should be a penalty for bypassing the puzzle. I got this idea from a Harry Potter Fanfic, Bungle In the Jungle:
Room is filled with Undead that are Vulnerable to Fire (Inferi/Mummies).
Room is warded so that using Fire triggers Bad Event (Mass Animate Dead/Big Kaboom/Whatever).
The trick is to provide the players with an obvious deal like this early in the night, and show them there is a Very Bad Event that triggers if they try to bypass.
So if the Tentacle demands feeding, you need to teach the players that not feeding the Tentacle is a Bad Idea.
My thoughts: First room in the Dungeon has Tentacle. Tentacle demands Fresh Flesh of X Monster. Party doesn't have it and won't be able to find it, so they attempt a bypass. Very Bad Trap Triggers. Very Bad Trap should ALMOST cause a TPK.
Later: Players encounter another one of these Tentacles. They also remember seeing one of the monsters on the other side of a locked portcullis in a room with an anti-magic field. Will they risk bypassing the tentacle or will they backtrack to find a way to get the Fresh Flesh of X Monster?
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Post by jesternario on Feb 27, 2016 17:05:09 GMT
The only big problem with this, is spells and ingenuity. had a friend back int he days he would simply stone shapes the walls instead of finding which ever door keys. if the doors are in wood, they'd simply bash it in with a fighter or barb or paladins. if the door was magical they'd try dispel magic first. A little off topic, so I won't go into details, but there was an old trap known as the Golden Room made for players who kept using magic to circumvent everything you threw at them, from complex puzzles to skipping out on the tavern tab. The trap made them pay for trying to magic out of everything, and made them just that more paranoid about doing so in the future. It also had a high TPK potential, so it wasn't for the squemish. If I remember the whole thing, I'll place it in the trap forum.
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Post by jesternario on Feb 27, 2016 17:11:16 GMT
I got thinking about this and making a room just for this.
Anyone remembers this part of the game, a room had this hungry Tentacle blocking you from getting past. The solution was to find a certain type of food and feed it.
So I thought they'd have to go search for food perhaps the kitchen nearby which has a cook with a big butcher knife. Easy to take him right? Not when hungry guards are next door.
Guess not much of a puzzle but I bet someone can make it a better idea. I like the idea, and if you make it so the tentacle speaks the PCs common language immediately upon entering, most players that I've dealt with immediately see it as a role-playing encounter instead of a potential combat one. Some folks might still try to combat the thing, but if it is speaking, a lot of players will try to schmooze their way through instead, since it obviously wants to talk. This gives the tricky players and social players a chance to get through it via stretching muscles other than their sword swinging ones. Have it say something like "I cannot let you pass unless you get me some food first!" and let the PCs speak. Good players will try to negotiate at this point. Of course, if they are of the olde school style of "if the DM controls it, it's evil so kill it," that's where my experience ends
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Post by DnDPaladin on Feb 27, 2016 19:11:13 GMT
considering i did a few traps liek that before... it really depends on your players. certain traps works better on your players because you know how they will act.
exemple... if i had a tentacle speaking to them right now... 2 of my players would talk to it try and find out why its speaking to them first. the other 2 just likes killing, they would jump on it before the rest can speak and understand... the 5th guy would probably take the long route and wait and see what the plans of others would do to it first.
this is why im rarly using traps in this game.... i have 2 power gamers int he group who thinks the game is just a video game. one does role play a bit, but hes playing a character that can simply bypass every traps by just doing dex saves or by just having lots of armor. and seriously... putting a trap that can kill them instantly is just rude to any players. even more if you have to do that in every single traps you make. at that point i would tell my players that we're playing tombs of horror and that my sole goal is to kill them. and then there would be no fun playing this game to me.
if i do put a trap or two... if my players finds magic ways to deal with it, then fine. i usually do something else because they are losing time anyway. and thus my rooms can go forward. exemple, bashing the door in... may take them 15 minutes to do, and it produces sounds. so maybe the next room is trigggering an ambush or coming in to see what the fuck is going on.
but really teaching your players to fear traps and then putting traps that only do a few hit points of damage... you'll end up with too paranoid players who will just do what my rogue once did to me... taking an hour searching for traps in every single rooms they find. or having a player paranoid enough that he walks with a stick at all time in order to act like a blind man to find traps before they trigger on him.
nah at this point there are things to do and just hope they dont use spell to bypass it in any way.
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