dmzane
Paint Manipulator
Posts: 150
|
Post by dmzane on Aug 14, 2014 5:16:42 GMT
That's just it....the rpg part is what makes it for me. Board games are good for what they are, time fillers/quick start games. I think taking grids from rpgs moves it closer to what it's supposed to be in my mind anyway. I'm glad I found this site and the new perspectives that has come with it. It's opening up a whole new world for me.
|
|
|
Post by thedmg on Aug 16, 2014 14:00:46 GMT
But grids are not precise? How do you move 13 feet on a grid?
|
|
|
Post by Cyan Wisp on Aug 16, 2014 20:56:58 GMT
As a transition, try using a measuring stick for movement on a grid - that's how I started. No more 1 square-2 square diagonal rules. No counting. Stop moving like a chess piece! As DMG implies, you can move any distance up to your max, not just 5' increments.
Not only is gridless intuitive, liberating and easy, it just looks so much better when you are playing. It is amazing just how cluttered a grid looks. Take a gorgeous colour map of your campaign world - now overlay a grid on it. Not good. We revel in creating these detailed, beautifully evil tiles and terrain - an ugly grid just mars up the joint and spoils immersion (in my experience).
I think 5e D&D will alleviate the book-keeping immensely, too, if you have problems with AoO, as it assumes "theatre of the mind" play. It speaks of moving in 1 foot increments and you can break up your move around your action, which could make play on gridless tiles even cooler!
|
|
|
Post by grandinquisitorkris on Aug 17, 2014 1:56:25 GMT
Wargamers don't generally use grids, and never have. Since wargames were the birth place of RPG play, why the hell should we use grids? I started out gridless, and now I am back to playing that way again, I can't really see many ways that grids made the game any easier.. the are constrictive, overly complicate a basic, common sense issue, and, they detract from immersion in the scene. But hey, don't take my word for it. Try it and see for yourself. actually , i play Dust Tactics , its the "WierdWarII" game i mention . its played on a grid , and is every bit a "wargame" . while YES , some wargamers (mostly the WH40K hadcore fanboys ) cant seem to wrap their minds around a grid on the table visually , it drasticaly speeds up play , and reduces cheating ( intentional or otherwise) . using the grid , i dont have to spend time leaning over the table with a tape measure ; measuring moves or range for my 50+ figs every round . the troops occupy a square , so i just pick them up and plop them down in that square , there is no "move and a smidge" issues , BANG , they are just there . their square either occupies cover , or it doesnt , no discussion and judgement call about it , its black and white . same thing with range , the units range is X squares , and thats it , no "range and a smidge" issues by players . there is no rules lawyering over what angles and % of the fig is in cover to get the bonus , its either in cover or not because the square is either in view or its not . some one earlier in the thread talked about players trying to min/max their move and attack options ......i can see that , but for us , the grid dramaticaly increases the pressure to think tacticaly several moves ahead . weather its my turn or my oponents turn , we are both thinking and ploting what we and our opponents are going to do for the next 2-3 turns , and as those turn go by our plans evolve and change based on what is happening vs our plans and predictions . YES , the grid does make some things harder , like terrain creation and the battle field DOES have a grid visually placed on it . the company that makes it also makes a couple of gridless versions (one just came out a couple months ago ) , but there was a poll last year , and more than half of the customer base played the gridded version instead of the gridless version . going gridless looks nicer to a degree , but it comes with its own issues . i am hoping to eventually get my project table cleared off and have a chance to getto work on my attempt to build forces for the DoctorWho Miniatures game , which will be more of a skirmish game , and plan to use some of DMScottys techniques to build some stuff for that , but i can see the benifits of going gridless , AND keeping the grid , and though i dont really play D&D RPG more than once every few years due to my workschedule , would be equally happy to sit in on a group session playing either way . <img style="max-width: 100%;" alt="" src=" ">
|
|
|
Post by Jason on Aug 17, 2014 2:40:03 GMT
What is funny is that I never have played on a grid. I used "theatre of the mind" for RPGs up until fourth edition came out, and I played 40k on and off since the first paperback Rogue Trader. I did try to work out non grid rules for the Star Wars miniatures game at one point, because I wanted it more like 40k but more skirmish oriented. I see the grid / non grid argument as just a matter of taste much like the edition rules war. Probably benefits to both, but the non grid seems more fluid for storytelling. To each their own though, as long as everyone has fun.
|
|
|
Post by sgtslag on Aug 17, 2014 18:10:15 GMT
I agree with Jason -- matter of personal preference. I've played with grids for years, however, we never even thought of using grid blocks for Area of Effect for spells. We just adjudicated it by measuring it out, regardless of the grid. I never realized how people used the grid for everything, until I looked in a copy of the 4th Ed. Dungeon Master's Guide where they demonstrated how they use it. We were blissfully ignorant.
I have been playing mini 's games without grids since the early 1990's, so using grids and gridless concepts together, is routine for me. Using a grid system as was advocated in 4th Edition, is not something I would do as I just don't like it. It makes it too much like a board game. Play how best suits your needs though. The Game Police won't be kicking your door in... I promise. Cheers!
|
|
|
Post by DnDPaladin on Sept 30, 2014 5:29:39 GMT
hmmm... i asked my players if they wanted to play gridless or try it. my only concern is that i have 2 new players who still have troubles grasping the basics after a few sessions. but now reading this thread again... im left with some questions about it...
first off, in which situation is moving 13 is better then moving 15 ? seems to me like its of no use considering you are still just imagining the guy being on range to you. unless you start calculating your distance to say hey i can reach him by the tip of my sword while not taking AoO if i move back. which at this point i'd just rule that the guy is thinking it too much. but thats me, maybe there is something im not seeing here.
the second question is... if DND isn't a board game to you, then why are you creating all these tiles and making sure the game has a board to play on ? surely the more you make it look like a hack and slash game, the more it will look like a board game. i'm also gonna answer something that came up... the fact that untill the 3.0 miniature handbook came out. the game itself was played without grids. else they were player adding these. which is mostly what wizard does. adding things from player games. i remember playing DND without boards at all. had no problem using my imagination.
i think i just answered my third question. so i'll stop there. but i'll finish on this much...
though DMScotty 2.5D next is a step backward compared to his tile based games. its a good step back. makes the game much less hack and slash and much more up in the air. the reason its a step back is that its far less detailed compared to the tile system of before. but this is what i like the most of it. and the why i haven't used any tiles in my game. i just placed my trees, walls, bushes and doors directly on the battle grid. i just dont like the idea of having a complete map and having my players play a hack and slash game by having the whole dungeon layed down in front of them at all times.
may be me, but as a DM its easier to show something to the player. but never should that something be the entire game.
|
|
|
Post by DMScotty on Sept 30, 2014 6:20:16 GMT
Even when I use full tiles I never lay out the whole lair. I only lay out a tile when they enter the room. With 2.5D NEXT you can even lay out half rooms. You may only want to move 13 if it takes you into cover.
We create tiles and terrain not for precision but for immersion. The benefit of tiles, terrain and minis is that everyone is on the same page tactically. Even story based games that have no real movement rules can benefit from a representation of the scene.
The main thing of gridless is to not over think it with rules lawyering. It may seem like not a big change but allowing the PCs to think about where they are moving organically and not counting grid boxes really gives the players a sense that they are moving a character and not a pawn on a gameboard.
|
|
|
Post by skunkape on Sept 30, 2014 15:27:08 GMT
The main benefit that I see with terrain, with or without grids is that the players can see visually what various elements of the scene look like and either restrict or allow movement. It also gives them the ability to tactically decide how they are going to attack or defend in a particular situation.
My big issue with grids is that it restricts movement in my opinion. That's why I make sure any hand created tiles don't have any 1 inch sized details in them even to the point of making stone textures measure out to an uneven size, for instance, 5/8 of an inch instead of 1/2 or 1/4. But like others have said, use what you are comfortable with and enjoy your game!
|
|
|
Post by sgtslag on Sept 30, 2014 15:56:21 GMT
It's all a compromise... I don't map out everything, but when I have put in details such as furniture, my players actually made use of it in combat; when I used strictly theater of the mind, details such as furniture, usually is forgotten. I still use my vinyl Battlemats, with overhead pens: my games are fluid, with Time telescoping as necessary. If I made dungeon tiles for every room, I would lose fluidity, being forced to run the characters through every room I crafted, or waste the effort making them. That is why I went with the 2D tiles from commercial vendors. Truth is, I have only rarely used them, as it is so much faster, and so much easier, to whip out a pen and draw the rooms...
Many of my adventures are spur of the moment, ad-lib encounters. The only way I can really do my style of gaming, is to use pens. Case in point: the PC's were in hostile territory, investigating a Green Dragon lair (ad-lib, made up on the spot because it fit their situation...); they explored the caverns, but hit a trap they could not pass; they had two non-player characters to safeguard, so the Mage cast Mordencainan's Shelter, a secured log cabin; both the dragons' lair, and the Cabin, were unplanned buildings, both were quickly drawn up on the Battlemats, as needed. I still love the freedom and spontaneity the vinyl Battlemats gives me. While I enjoy the visuals of the printed tiles, they are still difficult to use in my ad-lib games. I may end up using them more for mini 's games, and I am OK with that. I've never actually made a tile with cardboard yet -- they just are not a good fit for me, but I love seeing them... Cheers!
|
|
shadowfoot
Cardboard Collector
5th edition and Heroscape
Posts: 2
|
Post by shadowfoot on Sept 30, 2014 18:58:58 GMT
Even when I use full tiles I never lay out the whole lair. I only lay out a tile when they enter the room. With 2.5D NEXT you can even lay out half rooms. You may only want to move 13 if it takes you into cover. We create tiles and terrain not for precision but for immersion. The benefit of tiles, terrain and minis is that everyone is on the same page tactically. Even story based games that have no real movement rules can benefit from a representation of the scene. The main thing of gridless is to not over think it with rules lawyering. It may seem like not a big change but allowing the PCs to think about where they are moving organically and not counting grid boxes really gives the players a sense that they are moving a character and not a pawn on a gameboard. :)Abolutely agree. Terrain espicially in a DnD setting aid the party in really getting a deeper sense of the world they are adventuring in. Lets face it not all of us have the imagination of HP Lovecraft or Tolkien. Terrain in grid play continues to do this and yes a shout out to all lawyers out there,, calm down. ( especially my brother lol) The game is to be played for the love of the adventure, the role and the roll. Not to be debated for over and looked up in a library of rules and regulations. Freedom
|
|
|
Post by DnDPaladin on Sept 30, 2014 19:24:04 GMT
we still have to cope with the fact that rules do exists and that we do live by them. reguardless of if its homemade or not. so rule lawyering is always there reguardless of what we do. otherwise we'd see a guy throwing grenades and rockets against our black dragons and having him do bazillion damage just for the heck of it. and to that extent rules lawyer will always have a job in that part.
when it comes to tiles, i have a few room like tiles. they are just squares and rectangles of different sizes with kabab sticks on the sides to make the walls. i'm using them primarily for buildings. but as i said before, i'm more inclined to let the imagination run thru then just having a map all drawn. so i only draw out my stuff for battle scenes.
asked my players about gridless and if they wanted to try it out. got a good response from most of them.
as for movement on grid versus gridless... i dont see where the problem is really, it is simple math. 1/3rd of a second more or less isn't making a huge difference in the grand scheme. counting tiles and moving has become quite natural for me. so i move around and it takes me the same amount of time it would to measure with a rope or stick. looking at those warhammer player at the store, seeing them with measuring tapes all the times. i figured i preffered the grid more then that.
i'll agree on one point though... cover seems far easier to determine when off the grid !
|
|
|
Post by voodoo on Aug 17, 2015 0:30:28 GMT
I switched over to gridless a while ago and have had zero complaints from my players. All I said was "this is how it is run ( I explained it to them) and these are measuring sticks just in case. As the DM I will be fair, make the call if one has to be made and we can talk about at break or end of session. To date zero problems. Have fun, be fair communicate before the start of game play. Have templates for spell effects made up.
|
|
|
Post by DnDPaladin on Aug 17, 2015 11:00:56 GMT
i switched to gridless back last year. never came back... but when it comes to shortcomings of it...
i can safely say they are too few to be any nuisance... still... i had this one coming much often. players being only half an inch away from monsters or characetrs and yet still attacking. it leads easily into missconceptions and thus requires more job on the DM to manage these. as the players starts to look at their characters size and starts to count how far they can be. had even a player move backward and telling me no AoO because i didn't move the full 5 inch and still am in range of my sword to block. which in turn left another player enough space to shoot a missile thru without provocking covers.
i never had that with grids... one could say it makes for morte tactics, but all i saw was players trying to squeeze a fast one on me. i still gave the AoO, but with disadvantage on the roll. its the only real drawback i saw of the whole ting, otherwise gridless is much more like theater of the mind plays, and thats pretty much what the game was at first right.
|
|
|
Post by brokentoy on Aug 17, 2015 14:36:44 GMT
I had this one coming much often. players being only half an inch away from monsters or characetrs and yet still attacking. it leads easily into missconceptions and thus requires more job on the DM to manage these. as the players starts to look at their characters size and starts to count how far they can be. had even a player move backward and telling me no AoO because i didn't move the full 5 inch and still am in range of my sword to block. which in turn left another player enough space to shoot a missile thru without provocking covers. We play with a much simpler ruleset so this problem hardly appeared. Basically if the players can 'pull a fast one' at the GM, then it's only fair game that the GM can do the same. Melee reach is the same for most creatures so if a monster cannot hit the player without moving, then it works both ways. Players cannot move their minis outside their turn, but they soon learned to communicate their intent clearly and provide relevant information (example: I move my character here, just outside the AOE). If anything, being gridless helped us focus on the narrative aspect of conflicts and use the props as a reminder of who is where doing what in the scene. An interesting consequence of this is that it encouraged teamwork between players and GM.
|
|
|
Post by Sleepy Hollow Mike on Aug 29, 2015 2:07:07 GMT
I find gridless to be a more natural way to play. However I came from the days of a gridded battle mat and erasable markers. Most of my friends all started the same way and we seamlessly moved into gridless almost by accident. When we played in an outdoors campaign. ONce we got used to measuring we never looked back!
|
|
|
Post by ogrestamp on Aug 30, 2015 6:35:09 GMT
I started playing around 1981 and the modules, with the grids on their maps, were measurement aids for the DM when he had to map out the place. Well, that was my interpretation. Whenever we encountered a monster or something odd in a room, we just set up the area and rolled initiative. When the players got to move, they just moved their minis up to the monster and stated they were attacking. The only time we considered movement at all was when a character had to do some type of end run which was obviously too long for them to make in their turn (such as halflings or dwarves just moving across the room and even then we sort of approximated. It wasn't until 4e came out that we started to count squares and it became more of a video game for us (or at least for me). I did notice that we quickly lost the appeal of the game when 4e came out. Now that we play Pathfinder, and I discovered DM Scotty and the gridless idea, I have noticed more imagination from the party. My best friend is, by his own admission, not quite so imaginative, and he is very rules oriented. When I presented the gridless system he balked with his arguments against why it wouldn't be good for the game. He's the one who created our reusable walls but he insists that we use the game mat with the grids. I can be flexible if it means he has a better gaming experience. But I do make my own room tiles (partly because I want to and also because their are unique rooms in this dungeon). But I do not put any grids on my tiles and I notice the game mechanics flow just as well. Slowly but surely the players are coming around to gridless. But for now, there is, I think, a happy medium, and that's what it's really all about (those hokey pokey theorists now nothing at all).
|
|
|
Post by DnDPaladin on Aug 30, 2015 7:37:24 GMT
as i mentionned often... until third edition came out, d&d was never a gridded game. but then again it was never a 3D board game either. it was all mind games. if you show your players how to use their minds more then their eyes... this whole thing can easily be avoided.
|
|
|
Post by runningwolf on Aug 30, 2015 16:28:16 GMT
The group I play with haven't used gridless and generally didn't use minis.
We generally have play take prescience over rules. We'll measure for stuff like gun fire range, but when it comes to moving on the table we'll just guesstimate the inch being moved (GRUPS does 5ft moved per 1 second combat rounds). We're all basically cool enough to not be a cheater while everyone is watching. Everyone seeing that you're moving an inch.
|
|
sotf
Advice Guru
Posts: 1,084
|
Post by sotf on Aug 31, 2015 19:10:12 GMT
as i mentionned often... until third edition came out, d&d was never a gridded game. but then again it was never a 3D board game either. it was all mind games. if you show your players how to use their minds more then their eyes... this whole thing can easily be avoided. I'm pretty sure there were variant rules in print somewhere because I know groups I played with in at least AD&D used it
|
|